The Torosa family?

Hey guys,

I wanted to post for a number of reasons. First to introduce you all to the new couple I bought from a local guy here in town! And second if you could answer some questions as he seemed to only know that they were called "California newts" but I know that many could confuse this name with many different caudates.

1: Do they look healthy?

2: Which locale are these? Are they Torosas or Granulosas etc...

3: I'm guessing the one is female and is gravid or just morbidly obese... But is the other for sure a male? He has a much longer tale but I can't tell by the vent.....

4: What is the ideal setup for these? I do have a larger island for them to exit the water.

Thanks in advance for your help!!!!

Taricha granulosa. Note the dark color between the eye and lip.

Thanks frog Eyes! Do they look healthy?

Also do the females lay eggs on a regular bases even if they are arent fertilized?

Not sure if it helps, but have a look at this: Caudata Culture Species Entry - Taricha granulosa

-Stuart

Thanks Stuart, That link has been my Bible the past few days but it wasn't super descriptive in some aspects. Any professional help will be great appreciated!

Taricha granulosa. Note the dark color between the eye and lip.

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Some people argue that you cannot tell Taricha granulosa from Taricha torosa simply by physical differences, I, for one, am on the fence, as I have seen Taricha granulosa that have characteristics that are said to be present in only T. torosa. But at the same time they seem to have a noticeably different look, if you will. I can't tell for sure what makes them look different too me, but I suspect it is the compilation of many slightly varying body features from T. torosa.

Anyway, there is one almost sure fire way to tell what species they are, and that is where they were collected, do you know tyzoone?

1. It is hard to say if they are healthy simply from looking at a picture, but their appearance is fine to me.

3. One is a female and one is a male, you are correct. Judging by the pictures, the female neither looks gravid or obese, just nice and fat. The females in this species are usually quite fat.

4. Most people maintain this species in a mostly aquatic setup. I had good success with this species in mostly aquatic setup, it was a 40 gallon breeder, filled about three quarters of the way full, relatively heavily planted, and a few cork islands. I would lower the water level in the summer and fall, and them raise it again in the winter and spring. Cooling them during the winter ( down to the 40's ) and then raising the temperature and water level in the spring may get them to breed.

Oh, and "California newts" would be T. torosa, if these are T. granulosa then the correct common name ( or at least most accepted ) is Rough-skinned newt.

For diet, I would highly recommend earthworms and/or night crawlers. Not only are they very good nutritionally, but they are also devoured by these guys. however you could also offer woodlice and small slugs and snails on occasion to vary the diet.

My females laid a few eggs that weren't fertilized, but as far as I know it doesn't happen very often. This species is a bit of a difficult one to breed, so getting fertilized eggs is a challenge, but, if the female is gravid and didn't get fertilized, then she might lay unfertilized eggs. That is what happened to me, and it was only a dozen eggs or so.

Hope this helps. -Seth

Seth this advice is absolutely golden. Thanks a bunch! I don't know where they were collected or even if they are CB or WC newts. They are still eating heartily the earth worms I drop in. I've also ordered some white worms from Otterwoman and hopefully they should be here tomorrow. I'm going to take some more pics as the female has grown quite a bit and I'm thinking she may pop any minute! Frogeyes suggested they were T grans based on the slightly brownish color that comes down from the nose below the eyes. Is there any truth to this?

tyzoone said:

Seth this advice is absolutely golden. Thanks a bunch! I don't know where they were collected or even if they are CB or WC newts. They are still eating heartily the earth worms I drop in. I've also ordered some white worms from Otterwoman and hopefully they should be here tomorrow. I'm going to take some more pics as the female has grown quite a bit and I'm thinking she may pop any minute! Frogeyes suggested they were T grans based on the slightly brownish color that comes down from the nose below the eyes. Is there any truth to this?

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Good to hear they are eating well.
I find it interesting that you say she is getting bigger, are you sure she is gravid or could it just be food? This isn't typically the right time of year for them to breed, from what I have read and experienced. Though that does depend on where they are collected. They have been recorded breeding in every month except November, so I suppose that they might breed in September or October at higher elevations.

Frogeyes suggested they were T grans based on the slightly brownish color that comes down from the nose below the eyes. Is there any truth to this?

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I was actually referring to FrogEyes's post when I said;

Some people argue that you cannot tell Taricha granulosa from Taricha torosa simply by physical differences, I, for one, am on the fence, as I have seen Taricha granulosa that have characteristics that are said to be present in only T. torosa. But at the same time they seem to have a noticeably different look, if you will. I can't tell for sure what makes them look different too me, but I suspect it is the compilation of many slightly varying body features from T. torosa.

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I personally have never heard a for sure way to tell them apart in the field other than location and defense posture. Some people say that the dark under the eye is a good way to tell them apart, others say it is not. There are numerous things like this with these two species. I have seen things in T. granulosa that are only supposed to be present in T. torosa ( eyes protruding the head profile when viewed from above ).I don't really know if these method are reliable or not, but I just wanted to point out that they may not be valid. I usually trust FrogEyes though, he is pretty reliable. -Seth

They are almost certainly wild caught, probably from Oregon or Washington. Widespread collection in CA has been illegal for almost a decade (not to say it doesn't still happen). T. torosa and T. granulosa are not too difficult to tell apart once you've seen them side by side. How they lay their eggs is also a dead give away, T. torosa and T. rivularis lay clusters and T. granulosa lay single eggs.

Echoing what Seth said, earthworms are great. Taricha are also very willing to eat pellet food which can be convenient and provides pretty complete nutrition. Breeding is not too common but there are people on here who's pairs breed every year. Seasonal changes in temperature and day length seem to be the most significant triggers.

Good luck with yours, they look very healthy and are a lot of fun to keep.

Thanks a bunch everyone for your replies! I'm excited to hear I have a couple and hope to get them breeding some day. The lady has ballooned up considerably and I'd be very surprised if she doesn't have some eggs in her. Does anyone dare take a stab at the age of these two? Can you tell by just the size alone? They are roughly 5 to 6 inches long from head to tail tip. Going to get some more pics up sometime tonight!

Hey guys thanks a ton for your feedback! Sad to hear that they were wild caught but I'll try to give em good long lives. I've added a thick layer of black sand to the enclosure because the male almost swallowed a rock snapping at a worm..... Also, this lil lady is getting huge ! Am I over feeding her? I feed each 2 small earth worms a day. Is this too much or too little?

Here are some more photos with captions:

Girl on top trying to get some blood worms




Close up of the lady



Male behind



Lady back



The mansion



Also and critiques on my enclosure are much appreciated!

Their tank looks lovely, especially the island with the moss.
Does it usually have a lid, or does the glass lip keep them in?

Wonderful tank!

And yes, you are feeding too much. I would try feeding every second or third day. I fed mine twice I week, and they got a few pieces of large night crawler each, and they stayed a healthy weight.
If you feed less often ( once or twice a week ), then feed more at each feeding, if you feed more often ( three times a week or more ), feed less at each feeding. Also, it depends on water temperature. If the water is warmer you are going to need to feed more/more often, if it is cooler you don't need to feed as much or as often. At this time of year the water should be near the 60's in the wild probably. So they need to eat a little more, but still, not quite as much as you are feeding them.

I have never heard a way to tell age in this species. I have a hypothesis that they lighten as they get older but so far I have no way of proving it.
-Seth

That's a really nice tank you've got there!

Stuart

thanks Chinadog! Although the only time they've used the island is the very first time I added them to the enclosure. . . They then promptly snuck down in to the water and have been there ever since! I don't have any lids at this point and I hope that doesn't come back to bite me! There is a slight lip at the very top that It would seem pretty difficult to climb over and there are no structural things leaning up against the walls as the island is in the very center. Any word on the lil ladies plumpness anyone?

I would get a lid immediately. They never climb out until they do, you know. I think every newt I've lost since I started keeping them was due to not having a secure lid.

Thanks Seth for the feeding advice! I hope I haven't caused any damage!…. And slow foot that is also good direction. The tanks as I bought them came without lids but I may be able to throw together a screen top or something. Also, I've got a toddler at home who is figuring out how to destroy things so it probably ain't a bad idea! Thanks guys! I'll keep posting pics of the progress.

Any word on the lil ladies plumpness anyone?

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It is probably due to the over feeding.

And they should at some point use the island a bit, you might get you're moneys worth out of it

You called it Seth, I awoke this morning and found them both sleeping on the island only to escape to the water once they noticed me.