The longest running Amphibian Community on the Internet.

Tags Register FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Caudata.org Store

Notices

Plethodontids and Lungless Salamanders (Bolitoglossa, Eurycea, Plethodon, etc.) The largest, and one of the most diverse groups of salamanders, these salamanders have all evolved to breathe solely through their skin and are found almost exclusively in North America.


Reply

 

Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 7th October 2014   #1
Lamb
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 29
Posts: 222
Gallery Images: 17
Comments: 9
Rep: Lamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and information
Exclamation Desmognathus breeding success...now what?

Hello all!

I've been conducting courtship trials with Desmognathus in our lab, and am pleased to say that as of yesterday morning we have our first clutch (laid naturally without hormone treatments)! I checked on the eggs and mom today and saw many eggs in the process of cleaving.

My dilemma is this:
Do I leave the clutch and mom alone, bothering them as little as possible? (meaning only opening her lidded container to feed a few crickets and mist, and possibly taking a photo every other week)
Or, do I try to hedge my bets and remove 1/2 of the clutch to raise away from mom?
Then, finally, if I do attempt to separate the clutch, what is the best way to raise them?
At the moment, she has laid them in a depression she carved beneath a piece of wood and in some moist sand.

I've read a number of posts on this forum, as well as papers in the literature, about raising plethodontid clutches, and find myself torn. Keeping eggs with mom is easy and has its benefits (anti-fungals and -bacterials provided by her skin secretions; she'll eat fungal eggs), but also it's downsides (if what I consider minimal stress is really too much, she may eat the eggs). Alternatively, raising eggs away from mom means daily care, and daily worry about fungal infections.



Lamb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th October 2014   #2
Janusz Wierzbicki
(Yahilles)
Prolific Member
 
Yahilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 24
Posts: 529
Gallery Images: 4
Comments: 1
Rep: Yahilles is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgYahilles is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgYahilles is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgYahilles is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgYahilles is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.org
Default Re: Desmognathus breeding success...now what?

I think one of my friends raised D. orestes eggs on wet sponge and little desmogs hatched just fine. I think you need to choose, either you leave all eggs with the female or remove all of them. I'd be afraid that a big disturbance will trigger the female to eat all of the remaining eggs.



__________________
Cheers, Janusz
Yahilles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th October 2014   #3
Jake Hutton
Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 71
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: Jake Hutton has shown reliable knowledge
Default Re: Desmognathus breeding success...now what?

Are there any other females and males in there?



Jake Hutton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th October 2014   #4
Lamb
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 29
Posts: 222
Gallery Images: 17
Comments: 9
Rep: Lamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and information
Default Re: Desmognathus breeding success...now what?

No, the female is in her own small enclosure. A shoe box size tupperware with moist sand, flat wood and rock for cover, and sphagnum at one end.



Lamb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th October 2014   #5
Lamb
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 29
Posts: 222
Gallery Images: 17
Comments: 9
Rep: Lamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and information
Default Re: Desmognathus breeding success...now what?

After a few discussions outside of Caudata.org, I've decided to leave the eggs with mom, and to disturb them and her as little as possible. I do need to track their development, but I'll limit my exams to once every other week, at most (just visual exams, I wont be touching the eggs or mom).



Lamb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th October 2014   #6
Janusz Wierzbicki
(Yahilles)
Prolific Member
 
Yahilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 24
Posts: 529
Gallery Images: 4
Comments: 1
Rep: Yahilles is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgYahilles is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgYahilles is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgYahilles is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgYahilles is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.org
Default Re: Desmognathus breeding success...now what?

Did you have any special trouble with breeding these salamanders? Because i'm very interested in Desmognathus (not able to keep them cool enough here so they're a future plan) and i've been gathering info about them for quite a long time. My impression is that it's just about cycling them and providing a proper place for female to nest with a right substrate (wet sand, mud, dirt or something like that) - would you agree with that?



__________________
Cheers, Janusz
Yahilles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th October 2014   #7
Lamb
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 29
Posts: 222
Gallery Images: 17
Comments: 9
Rep: Lamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and information
Default Re: Desmognathus breeding success...now what?

Honestly, I was incredibly surprised that she oviposited. I have been told that getting females to oviposit is more difficult than getting individuals to court and breed, and I can't really contradict that statement based on this one observation alone.

These salamanders are wild caught (I have the appropriate scientific and federal permits), and they are maintained individually in tupperwares lined with moist paper towels in the laboratory at a constant temperature (21 C, which is okay for these salamanders in South Mississippi). Each salamander was placed in multiple different pairings for the purposes of my courtship study, and this particular female was inseminated by one of the males in my study. Once this female had concluded her courtship trials, I placed her in to a larger tupperware (the set up is described in a previous reply in this thread). She began ovipositing within 2 days of being moved in to the new enclosure. I've been conducting the study during the natural courtship and ovipositional periods for this species, so perhaps I shouldn't have been surprised that she oviposited. That being said, I treated another female in the same way, and she has yet to oviposit (fingers crossed).



Lamb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th November 2014   #8
Lamb
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 29
Posts: 222
Gallery Images: 17
Comments: 9
Rep: Lamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and information
Default Re: Desmognathus breeding success...now what?

Update:

I had a second female oviposit, but she consumed the entire cluster of eggs soon after they had begun to develop the spinal cord (nerulation).

The first female and her cluster are doing well. The embryos have well developed legs and toes, and are wriggling away in their membranes. I think they should hatch before Thanksgiving. It's been 40 days since they were initially oviposited.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	PB170172.jpg
Views:	204
Size:	130.8 KB
ID:	40192  



Lamb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th November 2014   #9
Eva
(evut)
Prolific Member
 
evut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 979
Gallery Images: 53
Comments: 10
Rep: evut is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgevut is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgevut is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgevut is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgevut is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgevut is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgevut is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgevut is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgevut is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgevut is considered an Authority at Caudata.org
Default Re: Desmognathus breeding success...now what?

Congratulations! The photo is fantastic. Shame about the other female eating all her eggs... but these are looking great. What do you do when they get close to hatching and how are you going to raise the larvae?



evut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th November 2014   #10
Lamb
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 29
Posts: 222
Gallery Images: 17
Comments: 9
Rep: Lamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and information
Default Re: Desmognathus breeding success...now what?

I plan on raising the larvae in the lab at least through metamorphosis, and on raising at least some of the offspring farther (the last time I counted, she had at least 23 in her cluster). If I'm able, and if my permitting authorities are alright with the idea, I'd love to raise a few of these to large enough sizes where I can then donate them to the Mississippi Museum of Natural Science as live specimens. I did this with one other species that I raised in the past.

I have fairy shrimp eggs from Arizona Fairy Shrimp , from which I'll get naupli to feed the hatchlings. If you're looking for tiny food, I've had great success with eggs from this company. I currently have larvae of the same species of Desmognathus in the lab, and I'm feeding them a mixture of fairy shrimp, mosquito larvae, and frozen bloodworms. Most are still strongly cuing in on movement, so I have to wiggle the bloodworms in front of their noses. I'll use my DSLR and macro lens to photograph all of them (both the current and any new larvae) as they develop.



Lamb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th November 2014   #11
Erin
(slowfoot)
Prolific Member
 
slowfoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 665
Gallery Images: 23
Comments: 0
Rep: slowfoot is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgslowfoot is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgslowfoot is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgslowfoot is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgslowfoot is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgslowfoot is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgslowfoot is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgslowfoot is considered an Authority at Caudata.org
Default Re: Desmognathus breeding success...now what?

They look great!

I can remember the conundrum I faced trying to decide on the fates of the animals I raised back when I was in graduate school. You can't help growing attached, especially when you get into the field because you love the critters. Best not to raise too many, sometimes

Donation to a museum or zoo are great options. I know there are a couple of posters here who are associated with institutions that house/study salamanders and amphibian conservation. They might be a further option for some animals.



slowfoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd November 2014   #12
Lamb
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 29
Posts: 222
Gallery Images: 17
Comments: 9
Rep: Lamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and information
Default Re: Desmognathus breeding success...now what?

The yolks look noticeably smaller, and the embryos are really rolling around within the eggs. Any more experienced Caudata members want to give me an estimate in terms of # days to hatching? According to Murphy's law, they'll likely hatch right before I'm supposed to leave for the Thanksgiving festivities
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	PB210180.jpg
Views:	184
Size:	137.1 KB
ID:	40306  



Lamb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd November 2014   #13
Janusz Wierzbicki
(Yahilles)
Prolific Member
 
Yahilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 24
Posts: 529
Gallery Images: 4
Comments: 1
Rep: Yahilles is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgYahilles is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgYahilles is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgYahilles is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgYahilles is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.org
Default Re: Desmognathus breeding success...now what?

Such a beautiful sight. Congratulations!



__________________
Cheers, Janusz
Yahilles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2014   #14
Lamb
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 29
Posts: 222
Gallery Images: 17
Comments: 9
Rep: Lamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and information
Default Re: Desmognathus breeding success...now what?

Here we go! There is a little head poking out from the bottom left of the cluster of eggs. Hatching has begun! I'm curious to see how long it takes for all of them to hatch out. It's been 55 days.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	D.cf.auriculatus #160 with eggs and hatchling 12_1_14 PC010187.jpg
Views:	188
Size:	133.1 KB
ID:	40442  



Lamb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd December 2014   #15
Russ Cormack
(rust)
Prolific Member
 
rust's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 798
Gallery Images: 44
Comments: 5
Rep: rust is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgrust is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgrust is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgrust is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgrust is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgrust is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.org
Default Re: Desmognathus breeding success...now what?

Very cool and congrats.



__________________
RUSS

War is Peace
rust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2015   #16
Lamb
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 29
Posts: 222
Gallery Images: 17
Comments: 9
Rep: Lamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and information
Default Re: Desmognathus breeding success...now what?

This is an overdue update: After seeing a couple of hatchlings and then no more progress by the next day, I adjusted the water level in the enclosure such there was shallow, standing water on the sand (~0.5 cm at its deepest). All of the eggs hatched within about a day of doing that. No mortality, and the larvae are all doing well.



Lamb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2015   #17
elKendo97
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 53
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: elKendo97 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Desmognathus breeding success...now what?

Great, I look forward to seeing photos



elKendo97 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2015   #18
Rodrigo
(Azhael)
Site Contributor
 
Azhael's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 33
Posts: 6,645
Gallery Images: 19
Comments: 2
Rep: Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)
Default Re: Desmognathus breeding success...now what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamb View Post
There is a little head poking out from the bottom left of the cluster of eggs.
I actually went "aaaaaaaaaaaaaw.....".



__________________
Please become acquainted with the forum rules.

Useful Links: Caudata Culture | Species Accounts | Care Articles | Newt and Salamander FAQs | Axolotl.org | Axolotl FAQs | Forum Functions.


Non Timetis Messor.
Azhael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th September 2015   #19
Lamb
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 29
Posts: 222
Gallery Images: 17
Comments: 9
Rep: Lamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and informationLamb has given consistently excellent advice and information
Default Re: Desmognathus breeding success...now what?

Well, she's a mama again! The same female oviposited another, larger clutch this summer. I'm ecstatic and hope that all goes well with them.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	P1011822_EDT2.jpg
Views:	148
Size:	128.4 KB
ID:	44086  



Lamb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th September 2015   #20
Xavier
(Sith the turtle)
Field Herper
 
Sith the turtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 665
Gallery Images: 150
Comments: 77
Rep: Sith the turtle is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgSith the turtle is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgSith the turtle is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgSith the turtle is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgSith the turtle is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgSith the turtle is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.org
Default Re: Desmognathus breeding success...now what?

Will they be for sale, or is it for research?



__________________
"I'll be honest, people come up with really profound signatures, and I can't come up with anything "
Sith the turtle is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads

Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pseudotriton ruber breeding success! Neotenic_Jaymes Plethodontids and Lungless Salamanders (Bolitoglossa, Eurycea, Plethodon, etc.) 42 12th November 2017 21:37
Breeding Success wargar Fire-Belly & Sword-Tail Newts (Cynops & Hypselotriton) 5 8th September 2011 13:33
This year's breeding success Yahilles Fire-Belly & Sword-Tail Newts (Cynops & Hypselotriton) 3 12th June 2010 16:33
At last (Desmognathus captive breeding) rigsby Plethodontids and Lungless Salamanders (Bolitoglossa, Eurycea, Plethodon, etc.) 11 7th March 2010 18:06
T. shanjing breeding success onetwentysix Crocodile Newts (Tylototriton & Echinotriton)... 40 26th July 2008 10:08


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:47.