Grep

[Mortimer]

Grep is a beautiful 5" wildtype. His owner, n7megan, has had him in a 10 gallon tank for the past two weeks (when she first got him). She posted a thread on here about him swimming around a lot, and someone asked her to post her tank's water parameters. Since she does not have access to a testing kit at the moment, I went over there and we tested her water.

The parameters were as follows:
Ammonia: 0.25
Nitrite: Over 5.0 (!)
Nitrate: 0

Temperature: Room temp (~70)

When I observed him in his original tank, he appeared to be very healthy and wasn't showing any overt signs of stress. But....we didn't know if the effects of ammonia/nitrite spikes might show up later, so we decided it would be best to get him out of that water and in aged, treated tap water.

I brought her one of my used sponge filters from an established tank (the tank I had HELL cycling and was always posting about on here!)........and I took the little guy home with me.

At my place, I fed him live black worms (he had been eating frozen bloodworms), and he scarfed them down. Seemed very healthy. He even responded to my voice (which my own axolotls do not do!). I've been doing 100% water changes twice daily and promptly removing any waste/excess food. I slowly got his water down to about 62 degrees, as I thought that cooler water might be good for him.

He was fine last night. This morning, when I saw him, I was afraid he was going to be dead soon. (Will attach pictures to this thread that I took sometime later.....). These were his symptoms:

1. Body was almost folded in half. It was bent at the beginning of his tail. (Not hooked at the end and not crimped-looking.)
2. I tried to feed him--he was unresponsive.
3. I carefully touched him, and he did not move. I gently tried to move his tail, and his whole body moved. (He was not dead.)
4. His back legs were not touching the bottom of the tub, they looked like they were paralyzed.

(His gills are not curled.)

I immediately did another 100% water change (making sure that the water temps were the same). About an hour after that, he became somewhat more responsive and became less folded-looking. After another 30 minutes or so, his back legs touched the ground again. When I moved him, he flipped out and almost jumped out of the water (which I took as a good sign, since he seemed unresponsive before).

When I took pictures of him a minute ago, I also noticed white spots on his sides that I hadn't seen before. (They do not appear cotton-like.) I'm unsure if they are just part of his coloring or if it is something else that might be wrong.

Basically, I feel horrible because he seemed fine in what appeared to be toxic water. Now that he's in cool, clean water, he's taken a bad turn. I feel like maybe I should have left him where he was.........I don't get it.

Also, I just tried to feed him again...he is definitely not interested.

Any thoughts/ideas/suggestions would be very appreciated (by myself, n7megan, and little Grep!),

Sharon

 

[pondweed]

I really hope this little one comes out of this okay. He's a little beauty.

 

[wandering]

Wish I could say something useful. You have obviously put yourself out to help.

Is your water different to what it was used to. ( I once moved house ten miles away and found that the village used local bore water different (and much harder) from everybody else for miles around).
Perhaps the abrupt change of food has caused temporary discomfort?

Hope it works out OK.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Alkylhalide]

I don't know if I'll be much help but I can reassure you the white blotches are just part of his coloring

as far as his behaviour. I really don't know what to tell you. Maybe its all to new for him? New water, probably a different pH, different temps, different food, different house and environment. I don't know that would be pretty hard on me.
Keep us updated on how he is doing, but really theres not much to say I think you are doing everything right from what I can tell. anything that happens I think you did the best you could do. I hate a huge nitrite spike in my tank and my axolotls seemed fine. At first it was a little shock to them to be in clean water but they adjusted. I was just afraid of what the nitrite would do(It was off the chart at 5+ppm as well)
is the water dechlorinated?

 

[gfsward]

Are the white bumps raised or flat on his skin?
I've seen it happen with some axies that I gave my friends that when they go from terrible water to clean their bodies just kind of go into shock from the fresh water. They always bounced back in the next day or two of being in the clean water. Maybe this is what is going on with his behavior? I'm just throwing out a guess so don't quote me on it, but with the nitrites that high it's possible...

 

[Mortimer]

Are the white bumps raised or flat on his skin?
I've seen it happen with some axies that I gave my friends that when they go from terrible water to clean their bodies just kind of go into shock from the fresh water. They always bounced back in the next day or two of being in the clean water. Maybe this is what is going on with his behavior? I'm just throwing out a guess so don't quote me on it, but with the nitrites that high it's possible...

I'm pretty sure the white spots are flat. I couldn't even see them until I took the pictures.

 

[gfsward]

That's probably just pigment then hopefully at least. If they were raised or fluffy then it would be more something to worry about.

 

[pascale]

Please dont feel bad for his little turn.. you are doing your best for this little chap (and his mates).
Im sorry I am too unexperienced to offer any advise only to say thank you for being such a dedicated and caring nurse (or foster mum) to these beautiful gilled children

 

[Mortimer]

Update: they all seem to be doing much better. Tails are straight (or close to it) and appetite is back!

Thank you for your responses.

I'm going to look after them a while longer (probably until their tanks are cycled) just to try to be sure that they are stable and strong before moving them again.

This is Grep:



This is Voltaire:



And I still need to catch Flick when he is posing....

S

 

[Mortimer]

I don't know if I'll be much help but I can reassure you the white blotches are just part of his coloring

as far as his behaviour. I really don't know what to tell you. Maybe its all to new for him? New water, probably a different pH, different temps, different food, different house and environment. I don't know that would be pretty hard on me.
Keep us updated on how he is doing, but really theres not much to say I think you are doing everything right from what I can tell. anything that happens I think you did the best you could do. I hate a huge nitrite spike in my tank and my axolotls seemed fine. At first it was a little shock to them to be in clean water but they adjusted. I was just afraid of what the nitrite would do(It was off the chart at 5+ppm as well)
is the water dechlorinated?

Thank you! Yes, the water is both dechlorinated and aged. They seem to be doing a lot better for now. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they stay that way. I can't believe that Grep came back from being unresponsive and stiff within 24 hours. Looking at him now, you'd never know that anything had been wrong. He's a tough little guy.

 

[Mortimer]

Please dont feel bad for his little turn.. you are doing your best for this little chap (and his mates).
Im sorry I am too unexperienced to offer any advise only to say thank you for being such a dedicated and caring nurse (or foster mum) to these beautiful gilled children

Thank you.

 

[pondweed]

Thank goodness! They're both such cuties; Grep especially, since I have a fondness for wild types. And both with such lovely gills. You're doing a really good thing!

 

[Jen10s]

You deserve a medal for fostering these little ones. Hope they grow big and strong for you, I'm sure it will be hard to give them back when their tanks are ready :happy:

 

[n7megan]

I am so so so thankful to Sharon!! Grep never looked too bad in his water so if she hadn't come over to check his water, I never would have guessed that there was a problem. He scared me A LOT when he folded up like that but I knew he was in very capable hands. Still waiting on my tank to cycle but hopefully this is the last scare with Grep. Huge thanks to Sharon for all her help and to everyone on caudata for their input! You guys are great

 

[Petersgirl]

You guys make such a great tag team! The two little ones look so much happier and healthier today, and so beautiful!

So happy to hear they're both okay! Hope your tank - and mine - make for a speedy cycle!

 

[mneavor]

If the nitrate levels were high then only a ~30% water change and retesting was necessary. It sounds like when you got him he was acting normally, but after changing him into a new tank and doing several 100% water changes you put him into tank shock and he started losing his slime coating. The tail curling, unresponsiveness, and white spots are all indications of very high stress levels. You should almost NEVER do a 100% water change. It is also not a good idea to poke them or interact unnecessarily with them when they're stressed. At this point I would turn down the lighting you have them under and make sure they're in a cool dark place to recover from the damage caused by changing tanks and then altering their bacteria levels so much. Please PLEASE do more research before endangering other people's pets.

 

[Mortimer]

If the nitrate levels were high then only a ~30% water change and retesting was necessary. It sounds like when you got him he was acting normally, but after changing him into a new tank and doing several 100% water changes you put him into tank shock and he started losing his slime coating. The tail curling, unresponsiveness, and white spots are all indications of very high stress levels. You should almost NEVER do a 100% water change. It is also not a good idea to poke them or interact unnecessarily with them when they're stressed. At this point I would turn down the lighting you have them under and make sure they're in a cool dark place to recover from the damage caused by changing tanks and then altering their bacteria levels so much. Please PLEASE do more research before endangering other people's pets.

Actually, they are all doing great now. A breeder I know talked with me about the situation and said if we hadn't moved them, they likely would have died.

For you to insinuate that I have not done my research is infuriating. Or that I have harmed someone else's pets. Maybe you should read my post more closely...then you'd understand why we did what we did.

 

[Mortimer]

If the nitrate levels were high then only a ~30% water change and retesting was necessary. It sounds like when you got him he was acting normally, but after changing him into a new tank and doing several 100% water changes you put him into tank shock and he started losing his slime coating. The tail curling, unresponsiveness, and white spots are all indications of very high stress levels. You should almost NEVER do a 100% water change. It is also not a good idea to poke them or interact unnecessarily with them when they're stressed. At this point I would turn down the lighting you have them under and make sure they're in a cool dark place to recover from the damage caused by changing tanks and then altering their bacteria levels so much. Please PLEASE do more research before endangering other people's pets.

And 100% water changes are necessary when they are being kept in small tubs. Many members here do this.

 

[mneavor]

And 100% water changes are necessary when they are being kept in small tubs. Many members here do this.

I'm sorry to have upset you, but again, adjusting nitrate levels back down with water changes is MUCH less stressful than exposing them to tank shock. It looks like they weren't in any immediate danger and I would have taken a much less rash course of action. And yes of course a 100% water change is necessary when you took it out of it's original tank and put it in an empty tank. And again, please do more research in the future! Tank shock is very very stressful.
Edit:
http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/PH_Shock
Edit again:
And after you mentioned that i misread your post, I went back and reread it again. On top of what I've said, doing 100% water changes twice daily is also bad which is probably why he became stressed so quickly. If water conditions are so toxic that a 100% water change is necessary, you should at least space it out a few days. Yes the nitrate levels were high, but only a 80% change at MAX would have been necessary. Please look around for evidence suggesting what you did was right, I have no problem in admitting that I'm wrong. But from what I can see, you did expose this little guy to tank shock jumping from such high nitrate levels. He should be recovering now without the large changes in PH levels, despite you changing the water twice a day completely, but I would suggest you stop changing the water so drastically if you still are because this will just further stress him out. A cool in dark place should help that. And I'm sorry again for making you upset, I would be too if I thought I had injured an axie.

Cheers!

 

[Jen10s]

I'm sorry to have upset you, but again, adjusting nitrate levels back down with water changes is MUCH less stressful than exposing them to tank shock. It looks like they weren't in any immediate danger and I would have taken a much less rash course of action. And yes of course a 100% water change is necessary when you took it out of it's original tank and put it in an empty tank. And again, please do more research in the future! Tank shock is very very stressful.
Edit:
PH Shock - The Free Freshwater and Saltwater Aquarium Encyclopedia Anyone Can Edit - The Aquarium Wiki
Edit again:
And after you mentioned that i misread your post, I went back and reread it again. On top of what I've said, doing 100% water changes twice daily is also bad which is probably why he became stressed so quickly. If water conditions are so toxic that a 100% water change is necessary, you should at least space it out a few days. Yes the nitrate levels were high, but only a 80% change at MAX would have been necessary. Please look around for evidence suggesting what you did was right, I have no problem in admitting that I'm wrong. But from what I can see, you did expose this little guy to tank shock jumping from such high nitrate levels. He should be recovering now without the large changes in PH levels, despite you changing the water twice a day completely, but I would suggest you stop changing the water so drastically if you still are because this will just further stress him out. A cool in dark place should help that. And I'm sorry again for making you upset, I would be too if I thought I had injured an axie.

Cheers!

Just to clear things a little, it was NOT Nitrates but the far more toxic NITRITES that were off the scale and an Ammonia spike along with it. I have to say I think there was no choice but to remove them from their toxic tank water immediately. Those parameters seem to indicate the tank was nowhere near to being cycled and water changes several times a day would still have these animals at unacceptable risk.

Also, I think there is a misunderstanding with regards to the size containers they are now in - small plastic Tupperware tubs NOT new tanks. It is well known that small amounts of water become contaminated very quickly as opposed a large tank where the nasties are somewhat diluted by the volume of water. Therefore 80% - 100% water changes and cleaning can only benefit the Axies whilst they are recovering / growing.

Check how many other threads on sick / injured Axies advise the same treatment, you'll find it's often the most successful ....... Cheers