Caudata.org: Newts and Salamanders Portal

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Did you know that registered users see fewer ads? Register today!

Paramesotriton sp. N. Viet Nam

Mikhail

New member
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
21
Reaction score
4
Location
St.Petersburg, Russia
Hello ALL!

First, let me introduce myself shortly. I'm Mikhail F. Bagaturov from Russia, a city of St. Petersburg. Working for the local zoo in Department of Invertabrates and amphibians recently start to participate into research of South-Eastern Asiatic herp-fauna projects under the Russian Academy of Scince. In my site in Introduction page you will find more info about me.
But, this is not a tend of starting this thread but...

Here i want to share with you some pictures of not yet id'ed species of Paramesotiton sp from Northern Vietnam Province - Cao Bang.
For some reason I do not point the exact locality the species has been found, just a current elevation about 600 meters above the see level is streams.

The photos are:
Biotop:
post-2-1245862184.jpg


Species in situ:
post-2-1245862327.jpg


And pictures of female and male respectively.
the largest speciemn measures 18 cm which is much smaller for P. deloustale (also known for North Viet Nam, Vihn Fuc Province) or P. gungxiensis (ref. exactly to Cao Bang).

And i want your opinion on possible id since I'm unable to do it myself yet.
Thanks in further and I'm ready for any serious discussion on the topic. I knew also the opinion on P. deloustale and P. gungxiensis is the same species.
 

Attachments

  • parames_female.jpg
    parames_female.jpg
    134.3 KB · Views: 772
  • parames_female1.jpg
    parames_female1.jpg
    140.9 KB · Views: 631
  • parames_male.jpg
    parames_male.jpg
    151.7 KB · Views: 1,281
  • parames_male1.jpg
    parames_male1.jpg
    187.2 KB · Views: 781
Last edited by a moderator:

Azhael

Site Contributor
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
6,645
Reaction score
103
Location
Burgos
They look very deloustali to me...
Anyway, thanks for the pictures, it´s always great to see some habitat pictures of Paramesotriton.
 

Ralf

New member
Joined
Nov 24, 2002
Messages
800
Reaction score
8
AW: Paramesotriton sp. N. Viet Nam

Hello Mikhail,
first of all, thank you very much for sharing these excellent habitat pictures and your experiences from Vietnam. It is always very exciting to hear about a new species of Paramesotriton and especially to get decent information about their habitat.

These newts look very "deloustali" to me, despite their relatively small size. I base my opinion on the overall sturdiness of the body, the skin texture, the broad and massive head and last but not least on the belly colouration.

I will post some photos of my Tam Dao animals for comparison in the next couple of days.
 

Mikhail

New member
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
21
Reaction score
4
Location
St.Petersburg, Russia
Re: AW: Paramesotriton sp. N. Viet Nam

Hello Azhael and Ralf and thanks for your comments and interest.
I definately would like to see Tam Dao specimens alive as i only saw preserved one. Will wait for your photos Ralf!
As for the belly coloration as i have a group of these parames i can assure you that it is very variable. It is also interesting that males` and females` patterns are very different too - thus some people here think this group is two different species. But all specimens was found on the stream into ~ 150 meters
I will try to illustrate what i`m talking about in near future while i`ll manage to make some good shots of animals.
And does anyone has properly ID'ed P. guangxiensis to compair with Tam Dao P. deloustale?


BTW. Doe anyone found water mites on the specimens pictured above? :)
And does it known for their cohabitation (I`ve found no any ref at all)?
 

Mikhail

New member
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
21
Reaction score
4
Location
St.Petersburg, Russia
Re: AW: Paramesotriton sp. N. Viet Nam

Hello All!

Just for You Information. Yesterday i was visited by the famous Dr. Nikolai Orlov from Russian Academy of Science (Zoological Institute) and he has identified the species as Paramesotriton guangxiensis.

Now we also study the mites which is seems like simbiotic to these animals (you can see them aggregated under eye area on the photo of male in my first post).
 

paul_b

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Messages
615
Reaction score
10
Location
Düsseldorf
AW: Re: AW: Paramesotriton sp. N. Viet Nam

Hello Mikhail!
And does anyone has properly ID'ed P. guangxiensis to compair with Tam Dao P. deloustale?

BTW. Doe anyone found water mites on the specimens pictured above? :)
And does it known for their cohabitation (I`ve found no any ref at all)?

Here you see Paramesotriton guangxiensis from typ locality:
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?query_src=aw_search_index&enlarge=0000+0000+0208+1746

http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?query_src=aw_search_index&enlarge=0000+0000+0208+1743

and here Tam Dao deloustali:
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?query_src=aw_search_index&enlarge=0000+0000+0208+1733

http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?query_src=aw_search_index&enlarge=0000+0000+0208+1740

The water mites will be away in few months!

Can you give us some information about waterquality and temperature?

Paul
 

Mikhail

New member
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
21
Reaction score
4
Location
St.Petersburg, Russia
Re: AW: Re: AW: Paramesotriton sp. N. Viet Nam

Hello Paul!

Thanks for you answer.


That`s very interesting as most of typical colored of found P. guangxinensis are of other coloration (photo will follow soon).


The water mites will be away in few months!

Already 4 months pass and they are still very healthy :) So I would be not very shure about it...


Can you give us some information about waterquality and temperature?
Paul

I can tell just about the temperature i was measured and it was 19 by Celsius. The water sure is as always in streams there are clear and you can use it for prepearing food.
Are there anything else you want to know?
 

paul_b

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Messages
615
Reaction score
10
Location
Düsseldorf
AW: Paramesotriton sp. N. Viet Nam

Thanks Mikhail,

19°C - what month have you been there?

The water mites:
The Tam Dao deloustali did not have them, but all laoensis. Here a photo of my female in the first months when I got it.
Also deloustali or "deloustali-like" from other parts of Vietnam had mites.
Here a photo of animals from Ha Giang.

All keeper report, that few months later they don't find any mites. So the question is "why not with your newts"?

Do you keep them together with other animals - fish or so?

Paul
 

Attachments

  • laoensis-water_mites.jpg
    laoensis-water_mites.jpg
    123.3 KB · Views: 691
  • deloustalilike-water_mites.jpg
    deloustalilike-water_mites.jpg
    67.9 KB · Views: 839

markusA

New member
Joined
Oct 8, 2007
Messages
59
Reaction score
5

Mikhail

New member
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
21
Reaction score
4
Location
St.Petersburg, Russia
Hello Paul and Markus!

19°C - what month have you been there?

It was end of May but I believe as the streams under good canopy the water temperature may fluctuate just in 1-2 grades.
As for mites, it seems like they survive in my conditions more than well. I keep 3 different groups of these paramesotritons: group of males (1), group of females (2) and a couple (3).
Groups 1 and 2 never had anything living in the same tanks. In 3 there was several (4-5) poecilia (guppies) but not any right now.
After some time I will renew the post with some images. It seems like as Markus also suggested they are very variable in color and sexually dimorphic species.
to Markus. Thank you for ref. I already was sent with these articles so if anyone else is interesting i can send it to you as well. Regards from Daniil (he will be here end of this week when we'll meet)!
to: Paul. Did You got my email (your PM was full)?
 

wouter

New member
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
208
Reaction score
8
Interesting discussion! I can add a few things;

Genetic relations between Paramesotriton in south China - north Vietnam are still not resolved. It is known that P. deloustali is very closely related to P. guangxiensis, and the two might be/could be the same species, or turn out to be recently diverged species (a matter of species concepts probably). In the recent description of P. ermizhaoi however, a very close relation between P. fuzhongensis and P. guangxiensis is found. The key is as always to sample a lot more populations in that area!
When P. guangxiensis was described, it was only compared to P. chinensis. Additionally, when P. fuzhongensis was described it was only compared to P. guangxiensis. A good comparision between deloustali and guangxiensis is still lacking, if all the variation isn't just intraspecific. Salamanders which are 100% sure from the guangxiensis area can be viewed at Herping paramesotriton arnaud.

At the Dutch Sal. meeting a few weeks ago it was mentioned that belly pattern of at least P. deloustali (Tam Dao) can change with age; the red slowly fades away (nothing to do with carotene). So finding a few old or a few young individuals can result in biased data.

Thanks for showing the photos and info, and keep it coming!
 

Mikhail

New member
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
21
Reaction score
4
Location
St.Petersburg, Russia
Hello dear Wouter!

Thank you very much as always for your useful comments and adds. This is exactly what i was awaiting someone to note.
It seems like the genus in general needs a revision with comparison of all types to fix the situation.
I hope i will get some specimens from Tam Dao, so i will compaire vouter specimens with typical P. deloustale myself.
As of distinguishing these two close related species i was aware that some DNA from the samples from the same locale as mine proceeding in Korea so I will inform you of the rezults when i'll been acquaint it.
Thanks also for directing to the link.

It is also that i think the species is sexually dimorphic and has age difference in coloration. I will show it with some time.
Right now i can tell that the female specimen shown above on picture is the only one showing the same coloration as the male. All other females is quite different but all males are the same as above.
 

Mikhail

New member
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
21
Reaction score
4
Location
St.Petersburg, Russia
Hello All and thanks for Your interest!

Here You'll find in situ picture of the specimen prior to capture.
It's not of the great quality but hope You'd like it. It shows the typical parts of the stream as a rule of ~ 20-30 cm deep lagoons they were found away the main stream closer to shores.
 

Attachments

  • parames_insitu.jpg
    parames_insitu.jpg
    100 KB · Views: 598

froggy

Site Contributor
Joined
Nov 8, 2002
Messages
1,779
Reaction score
27
Location
Manchester, England
What sort of density were the animals living at (number of animals per area of stream bottom)? Did they seem to be territorial, or more gregarious?
Thankyou for posting this fascinating information

Chris
 

Mikhail

New member
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
21
Reaction score
4
Location
St.Petersburg, Russia
Hello Chris!

What sort of density were the animals living at (number of animals per area of stream bottom)? Did they seem to be territorial, or more gregarious?
Thankyou for posting this fascinating information. Chris

Nothing for.
As for your questions all specimens was observed were found on the part of 150-180 meters of the stream (near 24 specimen), in each lagoon only 1 or 2 specimens (pairs) were found.
I would rather say they are not aggregate and more territorial. All animals were adult or close to adult (looking the sizes and ventral patterns).
 

Mikhail

New member
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
21
Reaction score
4
Location
St.Petersburg, Russia
Hello ALL!

So, here we go again.

Here i want to describe what was i mean above by different venral patterns of these nice parames.
Unlike males, which had the similar patterns, females of this particular species (i.e.let's pin it to local population characters as it is izolated stream) had rather different variety of coloration.
Here is the form someone can call intermediate (ref to males colors as the above pictures of the single and only individuality of female has the same colors like males).

I will continue posting after i made some pictures of typical colored females.
 

Attachments

  • parames_f_intermed.jpg
    parames_f_intermed.jpg
    153.7 KB · Views: 443
  • parames_f_intermed1.jpg
    parames_f_intermed1.jpg
    171 KB · Views: 655

Mikhail

New member
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
21
Reaction score
4
Location
St.Petersburg, Russia
Hello All!

So, here I'm again. Finally i got manageв to made some shots of other females of species in question.
And here's gastral shots of 3 different females of typical coloration patterns. You'll see it is rather different than the first one which is more close to male coloration.
 

Attachments

  • parames_fem1.jpg
    parames_fem1.jpg
    98.2 KB · Views: 405
  • parames_fem2.jpg
    parames_fem2.jpg
    107.2 KB · Views: 429
  • parames_fem3.jpg
    parames_fem3.jpg
    83.9 KB · Views: 448

Mikhail

New member
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
21
Reaction score
4
Location
St.Petersburg, Russia
And that's me again.
I have finally also got specimens preserved in alcohol origanlly collected from Tam Dao 2 weeks ago. You will see they look somethat close but rather different... and not only in coloration patterns but also in skin structure which is more verrucose in P. guangxiensis than in Tam Dao P. deloustale. Sure, all this important if these characters are valid in comparison with preserved and alive specimens.
On last pic I place a living smallest P. guangxiensis specimen of the group i have for comparison.
Hope that will be interesting for you.
 

Attachments

  • TD1-1.jpg
    TD1-1.jpg
    180 KB · Views: 423
  • TD1-TOP1.jpg
    TD1-TOP1.jpg
    185.5 KB · Views: 483
  • tdCOMPAR.jpg
    tdCOMPAR.jpg
    161.7 KB · Views: 920
General chit-chat
Help Users
  • No one is chatting at the moment.
    There are no messages in the chat. Be the first one to say Hi!
    Top