How to make a drip/waterfall set up?

axolotlfreak56 · Aug 8, 2012

Ok, well first off this picture doesn't belong to me, but I had to put this up as reference because this is my inspiration for a tank that I want create. But I have a few questions I need answered before I tackle something like this.

I want to create my drip wall or waterfall area with a foam/mortar style. But the one thing I can never figure out is exactly what to use to start this. I tried using grout like a few other sites have recommended only for the grout not work out well at all.
I heard the mortar is the better solution so I'll give that a shot.

But that said, what mortar should I use? What brand or any other specifics should I know about?
What brand of craft paint should I use? Does the brand even matter, as long as its non toxic?
And probably the most important, how do I neutralize the pH? I'm not understanding what it means to "soak" the fake rocks in vinegar. Either soak or cycle. Forgive my ignorance. but my current set up had no need for a step like this. I know this step takes about a week to neutralize the pH. Am I suppose to spray vinegar on the rocks for a week and how long? Or do I actually cycle vinegar through the waterfall area itself through the pump? Do I even have to use vinegar?

And also, as far as the picture is concerned, how would I go about making a drip wall like that? Not sure how to attach the plants. I have an idea of which plants to use, just not sure how I would get the plants to stay on the wall.
Any tips and advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

axolotlfreak56 · Aug 8, 2012

Sorry, forgot the picture. Here it is.

Pat702 · Aug 9, 2012

have water in a pool take a filter stack rocks cament them so they dont fall. so you dont see the filter(make the rock so it drips down) try cement

axolotlfreak56 · Aug 9, 2012

Pat702 said:
have water in a pool take a filter stack rocks cament them so they dont fall. so you dont see the filter(make the rock so it drips down) try cement

Uh...thanks but I've kind of tried this before. It doesn't work that well. At least without the cement. And that's kind of the issue I was getting at. What type of cement should I use, which brand?

axolotlfreak56 · Aug 10, 2012

Not to spam or anything, but 94 views and 2 days and not one person can help me out here? And not to be rude, but definitely not looking for answer like the one I already got as it doesn't answer anything I've asked.

Mark · Aug 11, 2012

Personally, I think you'd be better off asking on a dart frog forum such as dendroboard. Drip walls are quite often used in tropical amphibian vivaria but rarely with newts or salamanders. The lack of responses might suggest the wrong audience.

We do have a handful of imaginative keepers who build rock walls etc but I can't say I've ever seen something like you're suggesting on here.

Out of interest what do you plan to keep in there?

axolotlfreak56 · Aug 11, 2012

Mark said:
Personally, I think you'd be better off asking on a dart frog forum such as dendroboard. Drip walls are quite often used in tropical amphibian vivaria but rarely with newts or salamanders. The lack of responses might suggest the wrong audience.

We do have a handful of imaginative keepers who build rock walls etc but I can't say I've ever seen something like you're suggesting on here.

Out of interest what do you plan to keep in there?

Well, I have a mix of species in there, something I know people highly refrain from and for good reason. Although, mine have been coexisting with eachother for a little over year and there hasn't been one problem.

At the moment, its a 55 gallon tank. I have 2 Northern Reds, 2 Northern Slimy Salamanders, 1 Spotted Salamander, 1 Spanish Ribbed Newt, 1 Red Eye Tree Frog, and 1 African Big Eye Tree Frog. Again, I know the mixing of species isn't recommended, however as I'm currently not breeding anything and they've all gotten along for a little over a year I've had no reason to seperate them.

Currently, I have a working waterfall/stream feature that leads into a pool. The tank is planted with plenty of fearns and has moss and leaf litter and bark for everyone to hide out. The pool area has plenty of aquatic plants as well. They're all really active at night as well, so they definitely feel comfortable in their environment. But I really want to create my "dream" tank so to speak.
Anyway, thanks for the input though. I'll check out a a poison dart frog forum then. Thanks again.

Martin21114 · Aug 11, 2012

Try searching for diy 3d aquarium backgrounds. There are several forums with great examples and tutorials on how to make something similar to your example photo. I've built a few tanks myself (though none with a drip wall like that). If I had to guess how it was made (or was going to make one myself) I'd go the following route:

get a few small plastic pots for your plants, a filter or water pump, and tubing for the waterfall. You also need great stuff expanding foam from walmart or a hardware store.

Lay your tank flat on it's back and space out the items inside it on the back wall (currently the floor with the tank tipped over). Make sure your tubing for the water fall is extra long. You will be cutting of the excess later.

Once you have everything positioned, spray all around it with the great stuff foam (not too much, you can add more later if needed and it EXPANDS a lot. WARNING: this foam is nasty and will cling to skin, cloth , etc.. use gloves, be careful. It makes excellent messes.

Once the foam is dry it will set firm and you can start the next phase. Cut the excess tube off for your waterfall (you wanted it long so it didn't get lost or clogged from the expanding foam). Now you need to cover the foam to make it look more natural. There are several ways do do it (silicone + substrate, cement, commercial products). The way I made my last tank was to cover the foam in silicone then sprinkle substrate on it (I used coco-fiber, exoterra or something like that i think it was called). While the silicone is wet you just sprinkle it all over and press it in then wait for the silicone to dry.

After that put some dirt in the plastic pots (which should have disappeared into the foam wall), plant your plants, add water and you're done.

Poke around on the the site here, iirc there are some great threads with better directions and photos.

Good luck!

Martin21114 · Aug 11, 2012

Vivaria, Enclosures & Product Reviews - Photos & Pictures of Enclosures, Vivaria, etc at Caudata.org Newt and Salamander Portal

There's quite a few good posts you can use as a resource on just the first page alone.

erik3333 · Aug 11, 2012

Great idea!

At the pdf forums there are probably some people who may be able to help. What i would do is use styrofoam, shape it and use some sort of coating (free of harmful chemicals) to make it water repellant and put some sand and pebbles in there to make it more naturalistic.

Furthermore i'd use an external filter. That way you won't have to tear down the entire tank when it stops working.

Niels D · Aug 11, 2012

I'm using grout a lot. You can mix it with an acrylic polymere (don't know which brands you've got over there, but here we can get Flevopol and Eurocol 705). If you make a background out of expanding foam, you can carve it any shape you like once it's dry. When you're applying the foam, you can put in a tube. Make sure it ends on the bottom of your tank (in a corner for example) so you can attach it to a water pump. Place the tube over the length of the background and make holes at the locations where you want water flowing out of it. Try to hide the tube from sight of course.

Cover the foam with grout. You can apply more than one layer to get subtile colour differences. To get different colours you can mix the grout with the cement you use to fill the seams between tiles after they are placed. I don't know the English name, but you can buy it in different colours. It's essential that you use the acrylic polymere (ap), so both types of grout/cement can be mixed.

Mix everything until you've got the colour you want. If the first layer is drying, you can carve out the cracks a little, giving it a more natural and rough appearance. You'lle need cracks and seams to get a nice blend of different colours in the end.

If you apply a second layer you should make it a lot thinner than the first (allso with ap). If you start with a light colour and you've applied a darker colour you can rub the proud parts with a wet piece of cloth. The darker colour will remain visible in the cracks. Repeat this trick a couple of times using a darker colour each time. The first layer should be as thick as wet cement. If you end up applying a lay as thin as water using only black coloured cement and ap, which you immediately wash of, the black colour will stay in the deepest cracks giving it a nice finishing touch. You can cover everything with just the ep (it will dry up transparant) to make it more water proof. You don't have to use epoxy resin with this method, except when you make rocks in an aquarium where there's fish with those grounding jaws in it. Now you have a "rocky" background.

If you want plants to grow on your background, you'll need places in your background where you can put in some dirt of course. This can be done while shaping the foam. Not everything has to look like rocks of course. Some areas can be covered with sealant where you can press in some grounded fern root. There are other methods (Elastopur in Europe) used for applying fern root groundings. I love combining different methods. That's how you get backgrounds with rock and moss covered places. You'll have to be patient for the moss and plants to grow of course. You can hide the waterpump under a false bottom, a layer of those clay balls, soil, stones and other stuff.

Sorry that I don't have pictures of this method. I've just made a couple of fake rocks using this method for the first time myself. I've tried a lot of methods, but this one had the best result. I'm not using expanding foam btw. I'm using a product called "roofmate" which is used for roof insulation. It's a hard type of foam. (other brands Kingspan/Unidek)

Niels D · Aug 11, 2012

This is a method I picked up from dendroboard and a Dutch frog forum. I will be posting a new project here on caudata soon, because I've become addicted to making backgrounds for my newts, salamanders, frogs and toads.

axolotlfreak56 · Aug 11, 2012

Niels D said:
I'm using grout a lot. You can mix it with an acrylic polymere (don't know which brands you've got over there, but here we can get Flevopol and Eurocol 705). If you make a background out of expanding foam, you can carve it any shape you like once it's dry. When you're applying the foam, you can put in a tube. Make sure it ends on the bottom of your tank (in a corner for example) so you can attach it to a water pump. Place the tube over the length of the background and make holes at the locations where you want water flowing out of it. Try to hide the tube from sight of course.

Cover the foam with grout. You can apply more than one layer to get subtile colour differences. To get different colours you can mix the grout with the cement you use to fill the seams between tiles after they are placed. I don't know the English name, but you can buy it in different colours. It's essential that you use the acrylic polymere (ap), so both types of grout/cement can be mixed.

Mix everything until you've got the colour you want. If the first layer is drying, you can carve out the cracks a little, giving it a more natural and rough appearance. You'lle need cracks and seams to get a nice blend of different colours in the end.

If you apply a second layer you should make it a lot thinner than the first (allso with ap). If you start with a light colour and you've applied a darker colour you can rub the proud parts with a wet piece of cloth. The darker colour will remain visible in the cracks. Repeat this trick a couple of times using a darker colour each time. The first layer should be as thick as wet cement. If you end up applying a lay as thin as water using only black coloured cement and ap, which you immediately wash of, the black colour will stay in the deepest cracks giving it a nice finishing touch. You can cover everything with just the ep (it will dry up transparant) to make it more water proof. You don't have to use epoxy resin with this method, except when you make rocks in an aquarium where there's fish with those grounding jaws in it. Now you have a "rocky" background.

If you want plants to grow on your background, you'll need places in your background where you can put in some dirt of course. This can be done while shaping the foam. Not everything has to look like rocks of course. Some areas can be covered with sealant where you can press in some grounded fern root. There are other methods (Elastopur in Europe) used for applying fern root groundings. I love combining different methods. That's how you get backgrounds with rock and moss covered places. You'll have to be patient for the moss and plants to grow of course. You can hide the waterpump under a false bottom, a layer of those clay balls, soil, stones and other stuff.

Sorry that I don't have pictures of this method. I've just made a couple of fake rocks using this method for the first time myself. I've tried a lot of methods, but this one had the best result. I'm not using expanding foam btw. I'm using a product called "roofmate" which is used for roof insulation. It's a hard type of foam. (other brands Kingspan/Unidek)

This was very useful. Thanks. Also since you have experience with the backgrounds, would you be able to tell me what it means to soak or spray the rock background with vinegar? Supposedly the vinegar neutrilizes any acid from the cement or grout. This part I don't understand at all. And this process takes about a week.

Azhael · Aug 11, 2012

I realise you are not asking for criticisms on your mixing practices, but i really have to make the point for anyone who might be reading this thread thinking those mixes are acceptable.
Both the Agalychnis and the Leptopelis are frogs that require diurnal temps above what´s acceptable for the two plethodontids and the A.maculatum. Sure, P.waltl can tolerate high temps, but they are still not ideal in any way and always carry risks. By keeping all those species together you are sacrificing the optimal care of either one group or the other. There´s also the patogen exchange issues always associated with wild collected animals, specially when they come from different continents.
I´m not sure what exactly you have in mind for your tank apart from a lovely wall, but P.waltl requires a large volume of water, in which all the other species could potentially drown (specially the other caudates). Even if drowning never ocurred, any animal that strays in the water could be subjected to aggression from the newts which WILL see anything moving near the surface as something they should snap at just in case.
Finally, a year is virtually no time at all.

I hope you decide to separate the species into independent tanks where you can offer optimal care for each of them and avoid unnecessary risks. You could stil have a beautiful tank without compromising the well-being of a bunch of animals for your enjoyment.

erik3333 · Aug 11, 2012

Well, if this tank will also house Agalychnis then i'd have to say it is far too wet for them. Outside the breeding season they actually prefer a dry environment. A small waterbowl is enough for them. Keeping them rather dry also limits the growth of fungi and bacteria.

I wholeheartedly agree with the comments made about the mixing. Just don't do it, you'll reget it.

Niels D · Aug 11, 2012

axolotlfreak56 said:
would you be able to tell me what it means to soak or spray the rock background with vinegar?

I honestly never heard of this method. If you use the type of grout meant for glueing tiles for the bathroom you surely don't need to treat it in such a way. The only thing you need to do is let it dry completely, whick will take a couple of days. You need to wash the whole surface with water afterwards. Using an acrelic polymere through the mix can let you use the grout surface for an aquarium.

mshine1217 · Aug 20, 2012

I use sandless grout. I start with a very thin liquidy (sp) consistency and end with a thicker one to refine and add depth to the features like outcroppings and such. It doesn't require treatment and I simply use acrylic craft paints to get the look that I want.

SludgeMunkey · Aug 21, 2012

Somewhere over in the depths of frog forum I have covered this topic in detail. Additionally, I have discussed it here, so it is best to use the forum search functions for both sites as that was detailed quite a while back.

In my experience however I will tell you it is virtually pointless to do such a build for most if not all caudate enclosures.

As stated previously such a build is more for frogs.

Also keep in mind the upkeep and expense is a pain. Not worth the effort in my opinion for caudates.

Niels D · Aug 21, 2012

The method I mentioned is used in aquaria as well.

grius · Aug 22, 2012

This is how i made a waterfall using white foam, cement/fine sand mix. For painting i blend pigment powder colours with something called tapecrete, and i think there are many other products mentioned in this thread that is about the same thing. A polymere for mortar products, only this is more specifically for aquarium/terrarium habbitats etc. Maybe a little hard to find in your country tho.

Faux rock waterfall - YouTube

You can also make waterfalls from using real rocks in different shapes and sizes. Just silicone it together with aquarium silicone and build up a nice fall/drip rock part, it's quite easy. But be sure to wash of the stones carefully before so the silicone attach.

How to make a drip/waterfall set up?

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