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Can someone explain how sphagnum moss is bad?

Eel Noob

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I remember reading something about how moss has negative ions or something and it dramatically reduces the lifespan of amphibians.


If someone can explain this in detail it would be greatly appreciated.


Sorry if this is posted in the wrong section.





Thanks in Advance
 

Abrahm

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They have done some studies on caudates, specifically Plethodon cinereus and found that these animals tend to do poorly on acidic substrates. I'm going toe extrapolate a little bit here.

Let me quote this from Wikipedia (I know, I know, but it's what I have at the moment)
Sphagnum and the peat formed from it do not decay readily because of the phenolic compounds embedded in the moss's cell walls. Peat moss can also acidify its surroundings by taking up cations such as calcium and magnesium and releasing hydrogen ions.

There are two problems here. Peat moss causes a loss of important blood soluble cations like calcium and magnesium while releasing hydrogen ions. The imbalances caused by losing these cations can cause all sorts of biological problems: magnesium is needed for DNA replication and repair and calcium is obviously used in bone growth and in various cell metabolisms not to mention that a certain amount of blood solubles are necessary for life. The salamander exchanges these ions through its skin for hydrogen ions which are basically acid. This causes acidosis, or acidification of the blood.

The other bad thing about sphagnum is the presence of phenolic compounds. Many of these organic compounds are toxic or carcinogenic.
 

Ed

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I would have to dig around to find the original article but the low pH causes the loss of cations from salamander including calcium. This loss of positive ions causes disruptions in the salamander's ability to osmoregulate as well other metabolic functions. When the imbalance becomes too great the salamander dies. This can take quite awhile as there are variations in the pH of batches of sphagnum moss and/or the general condition of the salamander.
(At least that is how I remember it).

Ed
 

Jennewt

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A lot of people have used sphagnum and/or peat moss with amphibians. The problem is that there is a lot of batch-to-batch variability. If it's not strongly acidic, everything is fine. If it is, the animals could die. It's possible to test the pH of the material, or soak it many times in hard water to neutralize it. But it's a lot easier to simply not use it.
 

apocalyptica139

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I didn't hear about this acidification caused by spaghnum before. Is this only the case with spaghnum moss or are more types of moss dangerous to salamanders? Because I use java moss and regular moss that you can buy in flower shops with my Eurycea's and I have blocks of peat soil in it.
 

Jennewt

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I think live moss is generally OK. But any kind of dried moss or peat could be acidic.
 

grunsven

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Only sphangnum has this acidifying effect. It grows in wet nutrient poor conditioned and has evolved a trick to get enough nutriënts. This trick is swapping H+ for cations. other mosses don't do this (to that extent).

Another reason why sphagnum is bad is that it is very unsustainable. It is harvested from peatbogs. The peatbogs are drained and the sphagnum and peat are removed. As peatbogs grow very slow regeneration is nearly nonexistant. Sadly many animal and plant species are dependent on these disapearing bogs and threatend by this harvesting.
 

will_j

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it should be noted that some species are adapted to more acidic conditions, for example Lissotriton helveticus can survive in peat bog pools. Here in Shropshire I have found them several times in acidic pools. In Northern Scotland, there is often little else in the way of water, and they survive very well. However the growth is often stunted, I'v heard of them being as small as 2.5cm! Could this be due to loss of cations? It would be interesting to compare the average life spans of those populations in acid conditions and those in neutral/basic conditions.
 

dustoj

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i currently have blue spotted salamanders being kept in spagnum moss. they've been kept in it their entire terrestrial lives, of about a year and a half. they seem to be healthy and fine. it is changed every few months.

this concerns me though. what are the alternatives?
 

Jennewt

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Dusto, you have several alternatives. You can use any kind of soil or soil-like substrate, including commercial mixes or coco-fiber. For hides, there are also many alternatives, including live plant cuttings, caves, tubes, bark, etc.

Another alternative would be to pre-soak batches of sphagnum moss before you use it. Soak it in several changes of water, and test the pH of the water coming off it after it has soaked overnight.
 

gregory741

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I am using top soil and it has some peat and sphagnum moss is that ok???
 
C

Cliygh and Mia

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If it is growing from like a rock or something it would be okay, but the loose sphagnum is an impaction hazard, if they miss their intended target, they could swallow the loose sphagnum moss and not pass it, and I believe it does something to the PH of the ground and what not
 

Asevernnnn

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Moss isn't really an impaction hazard, plenty of people use moss without any ill effects, sphagnum peat moss can be acidic which is why it's not advised, I wouldn't use the soil and go find some other brand that doesn't have any fertilizers and peat or switch to coco fiber that you can buy at a petstore
 
C

Cliygh and Mia

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It is an impaction hazard for frogs, mainly tree frogs, when they pounce on top of something, they can grip some of the moss in their mouths, and it can get stuck to their toe pads, and when they push the prey into their mouths, some sphagnum can get in there too
 

Stupot1610

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It is an impaction hazard for frogs, mainly tree frogs, when they pounce on top of something, they can grip some of the moss in their mouths, and it can get stuck to their toe pads, and when they push the prey into their mouths, some sphagnum can get in there too

Even if that happens it's still not an impaction hazard - it's organic and can actually be broken down (but not digested, as amphibians are not herbivores) in the gut and passed easily, imagine the moss etc they will accidentally eat when catching prey in the wild.
 
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