Question: Cannibalism in axolotls

[amberose1]

I've read at about 6 inches axolotls grow out of the cannibalism stage. is it possible to have axolotls in that stage after they've reached adult size?

 

[Velice]

They will be self-cannibalistic if their tail moves just right.

 

[usafaux2004]

It's been speculated that they are NOT cannibals, just opportunistic snappers of food. I've had a 2.25 and 3.75" juviniles together, and no attempts to eat each other, even during feeding. Sometimes they snap at the food too close together, causing one, or both to swim away. Sometimes accidents happen, and a gill or limb become part of the menu. Older axies can cause damage too when hungry or going for food close to a friend. I really don't believe however that the act is intentional.

 

[auntiejude]

'Cannibalism' implies a preference to eat their own kind, axies aren't smart enough for that. As said before, when hungry they will snap at anything - whether its food or not, including plants, owners hands, air bubbles, each other and yes even their own tail.

If you have axies that are nipping at each other there is probably another issue: they may be underfed, if there is a significant size difference its more likely to happen, or if they are upset by something else (bright lights, bad water quality etc) they may attack each other.

 

[xxianxx]

Quite surprised there is any debate over whether axolotls are cannibals, they eat smaller members of their own species throughout their lifetime, which pretty much is the definition of cannibalism ie consuming ones own species. If you don't believe me drop some 3" ones in an adult tank and see what happens....

 

[auntiejude]

they eat smaller members of their own species throughout their lifetime, which pretty much is the definition of cannibalism ie consuming ones own species.

Isn't that what has been said? The will and do eat smaller ones of their own kind, but do not deliberately seek their own kind over other food. They are cannibalistic by opportunity, not choice, and they are not really that picky (despite some posts here) about what they eat - if its small and it moves it might be food and it's worth a bite to investigate. Nobody said they are not cannibals.

What has been disputed and debated is the 'cannibalistic phase' where smaller axies snap at each other with far greater frequency that adults.

My observation and expereince on this is that hungry axies are far more likely to bite at each other than sated axies, and the 'cannibalistic phase' is only a phase of fast growth resulting in a hunger that an owner is not keeping up with, and the axies are simply searching for more food.

 

[lovesheraxies]

In my experience there won't be cannibalistic at all provided they have enough space and plenty of food, like mentioned above they can also be self snappers, my Penny is in a tank by herself and she has mangled her tail a few times by snapping it. I have about 250 babies right now, 9 weeks old and up until a few days ago they were all together in tanks and large tubs since they were born, no casualties, no injuries until 3 days ago when I started to separate into their own small tubs, I figured two would be fine to a tub over night while I got everything set up but the next morning I found 3 missing an arm each so it goes to show in close quarters they can def be snappy. I still have groups housed together in tanks that are fine. My two 3 inchers have never snapped each other but they are quite small in a 20 inch tank, I know accidents will happen as they get bigger.

 

[michael]

I hatch my eggs communally and raise the larvae together. I separate by size as some larvae get bigger than others. If fed properly axolotls will rarely eat other axolotls that are the same size they are.

 

[bugdozer]

I think there's a legitimate reason why people think there's a "cannibalistic phase", BUT I don't think it's because of an increased snapping tendency at any age.
This is my theory, see what you think.
When larval axolotls begin to grow their legs, those legs are very fragile. They are little threads of flesh that will tear off really easily. If another larva of similar or greater size snaps at that leg, it will in all probability come off. As more weeks go by, their legs become strong enough to withstand a bite more easily and are less likely to be bitten off. Their bites get stronger too, but I don't think they strengthen as fast as the legs do. The net result of this is that if the amount of snapping remains constant across all ages, you will see a period when the larvae receive more actual damage.
What we need is a graph of the ratio of axxie bite strength against limb toughness for different ages!

 

[auntiejude]

This is my theory, see what you think.
When larval axolotls begin to grow their legs, those legs are very fragile. They are little threads of flesh that will tear off really easily. If another larva of similar or greater size snaps at that leg, it will in all probability come off. As more weeks go by, their legs become strong enough to withstand a bite more easily and are less likely to be bitten off. Their bites get stronger too, but I don't think they strengthen as fast as the legs do. The net result of this is that if the amount of snapping remains constant across all ages, you will see a period when the larvae receive more actual damage.

Interesting theory, and there is definately some merit in it. Having said that I have sucessfully raised more than a dozen axies from egg to 6" without a single missing limb, toe or gill (I will admit to a small tail nip though). Many people have also observed that juveniles are far more snappy than adults, so snapping does not remain constant.

What we need is a graph of the ratio of axxie bite strength against limb toughness for different ages!

Bite strength is easily measurable, but how do you intend to measure limb toughness? You can go around snapping axie legs to see how much force is needed!

 

[Alkylhalide]

I would agree with this theory. This is my second time raising eggs. My first shot at it by the time their back limbs came in i had to seperate them individually due to missing limbs. I fed them twice daily and thined them out as they grew bigger but still.. This time around They are 6weeks old at 4per tub and everything is great!

What I have noticed is that right when their back limbs start to grow, and that you are weaning them off live food, is when they become snappy, but more then this, they start to become more aware of movement, like when I go close to them they all come swimming towards me. They will snap at everything, they are becomming stronger but still have fragile limbs as they are still growing. This is why I agree that it just seems like what we call a cannibilistic stage is just as simple as a stage in their development in which they are more able to damage each other as they are becoming more aware and snap at any movement. Also this seems to go along with keeping them well fed as well. Also as they grow older then dont need to be fed as much as when they are young juveniles, they get stronger but also more lazy and docile.

If i feed my axolotls to close to each other I have seen one grab ahold of the others leg by accident and not let go.. And they freak out and I freak out but no damage ever occurs.

It is true though as long as they have enough space and food they tend to keep snapping to a minimum.

 

[amberose1]

Very interesting. thanks so much for the input everyone!

 

[Boomsloth]

I think this idea of a cannibalistic phase comes from their survival instinct. When axolotls hatch they need to keep eating to maintain their growth and development otherwise will perish. Since there could be hundreds hatching at any one time the food sources can become slightly depleted in certain areas. The axolotls that were probably most likely to survive were the ones that were not as picky with their food choice. As adults they do not require as much food but would still prefer any meal over no meal. That being said if an axolotl is hungry and has something it could eat in front of it, regardless if its food or sibling, it will go for it. It all depends on availability of food.