Captive bred vs. wild caught

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dawn

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OK, here's where I let everyone know how naive I am.
From what I've been gleaning on the forum, there's much more capture from the wild and importation of salamanders & newts than I had previously thought. Do people know, if I go to the petstore and buy, say, the following newts, what are the chances it was captive bred vs. wild caught? (or any other species people want to comment on):
tarichas
paddletails
warty newts
chinese fire belly (the little ones)
Eastern newts
spotted salamanders (US)
marbled salamanders (US)

I'm assuming that the fire salamanders, the alpine and marbled newts native to Europe are all captive bred. At least in the US. Let me know if I'm wrong.

Well, thanks in advance to anyone who might know this stuff!
 
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john

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The chances of finding captive bred North American caudates is almost non-existant in pet stores. You would have to find someone who breeds them. I'd say right here on Caudata.org is the best place for that!
 

michael

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Their are still w.c. fire salamanders imported to the U.S. I'm not sure about marbled newts but think some w.c. are still imported. I think most alpine newts in the U.S. are c.b.

The majority of newts and salamanders you will find offered for sale are w.c. All newts and salamanders offered for sale on Caudata.org are supposed to be c.b.

When possible try to get your salamanders from a hobbyist or breeder. If you want something that is not c.b. be prepared to purchase a couple extras for insurance. When I get some nice w.c. stock I work on breeding it.

I avoid U.S salamanders because they will get U.S. residents in the most trouble when swapping, buying, and selling. It probably doesn't matter much for a hobbyist but the rules on native in the U.S. are in flux.
 
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nicole

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In R.I., it's against the law to have marbled salamanders. They are native to here and protected by the government. I have lots of them in my yard. Come right up to my door and swim in the pool. Pretty cool when you add the tree frogs hanging onto the side of the house.
 
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jennifer

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I agree with John W., the chances of finding any CB newts/sals in an actual pet shop are about zero. I've heard of one or two shops selling axolotls (which are always CB), but that's about it. Among the species you listed, I have NEVER seen any CB ones posted for sale, except for occasional ads on this forum. Spotted sals have never been bred in captivity, to my knowledge, and marbleds are bred VERY rarely.

If you are looking online (elsewhere besides this site), be skeptical of animals claimed to be CB, especially if they are "CB adults". And some of the WC animals that show up for sale in the USA are species that cannot be legally collected in their country of origin, like the fire sals.


(Message edited by jennewt on February 09, 2007)

(Message edited by jennewt on February 09, 2007)
 
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annmarie

Guest
..why are there not laws against pet stores (or anyone) from selling WC amphibians to avearge Joe especitally since many amphibians are in great decline. Are there quotas for collection instates? Or is this something that is pretty much unreggulated that no one will notice until it is too late? I know from state to stae some have laws reguaring trade of species across borders, etc. I have even sent emails to Illinions and Indiana DNR and otehr places for info, and i got no replies yet.

I been having a hard time finding laws reguaring this.

I am just glad people on here are breeding and attempting to breed rather than just harvesting for profit.
 
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john

Guest
AnnMarie

Here in MD, the laws are very messed up. If you are collecting native salamanders to use for fishing bait, you may be in possession of up to 25 with exceptions of a couple of protected species. If you are attempting to captive breed them, then you may collect and keep up to 4 with a special permit. You may not collect and sell or attempt to sell ANY WC native reptiles or amphibians in the state of MD even if they were collected in another state. The tiger, green, and i think valley and ridge are considered protected species and may not be collected without a scientific permit.

Obviously, it makes NO sense whatsoever to me to allow people to collect up to 25 to stick on a hook and kill but to limit me to 4 for trying to captive breed. However, I applaud the state of MD for at least trying to prevent the pillaging of our native fauna for profit.

One thing you'll find, is that states often list species for special protection based upon the commonality in that state only. For instance, Nicole states marbled sals are prohibited to keep in RI but here in MD I have no such restrictions. Here in MD the green sal is protected, but not in WV.

Up until this year, I was a holder of a captive breeding permit but I let it lapse because I just don't have the time to keep up with it all. I may give it a go again but for now I'm just doing field herping.

On the state of captive breeding of North American caudates, I believe our European compatriates have more success than we do.
 
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dawn

Guest
I saw two sirens in the pet store the other day. I've also seen spotted sals. That makes me really sad now that I know that they weren't cb.
What about chinese fire bellies? Sometimes at the petstore they are so small and young looking.
And there are SO MANY! How many do they import a year?

Does anyone here captive breed tarichas? I want some so bad and I've never seen them in the petstore or anywhere.

How about this question: What species have people on this forum been able to captive breed?
 

ryan

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Nicole- I had no idea Marbled salamanders were illegal in our state, i haven't found one either.
 
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annmarie

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the only thing i ever see arround here petstore wise are "oregon newt" and "firebelly newt". most of the time i see the firebelly they are very very very small, so sometimes I wonder.

John,
it sounds very "weird" that one can use more salamander for fishing bait than as a breeding project. At least they have some sort of an attempt at a law. I know most laws and data are kept state to state, such as a creture locally common on one state does not have same protection as those who are locally rare in another. I guess since there are not big cute fuzzy mega fauna it will take a bit more time to catch the public and law makers hearts.

Well, I wish any luck to those breeding native species especially.
 
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jennifer

Guest
Indeed, all those little chinese fbn are wild-caught. China must be exporting them by the millions every year. It is possible that the average size for them may be getting smaller as the adult populations in some localities get tapped out. Sad.

I've have never heard of anyone in the US succeeding at captive breeding Taricha. It has been done in Europe, so it is certainly possible. It may have occurred in the US too, but rarely. They are evidently not an easy species to breed in captivity. Lots of keepers see courtship, but not eggs.

The species that are occasionally available captive bred in the US: Axolotls, of course. Fire salamanders are fairly easy (though sadly I see more WC than CB). Chinese and Japanese firebellies, and their relatives C. ensicauda and C. cyanurus. Most of the Triturus (crested and marbled newts) and some of their smaller relatives (alpestris, vulgaris, etc.). Neurergus strauchii are beginning to spread. There have been successes with the Tylototritons (crocodile newts). A few people have had success with CB Notophthalmus, but even more people have had Notos die for no obvious reason.

It's rather shameful how many American species have been bred in Europe, but not in the US. In addition to Taricha, this is also true for Necturus and several of the Ambystoma sals. While there are plenty of people in the US keeping such species, we are way behind in terms of having people who are "serious" breeders. Everybody SAYS they want to breed their animals, but they rarely have the time, resources, and information needed to actually do it.

The main reason for the existence of this entire website is to accelerate the pace of information exchange, which is critical to success in captive breeding. We still have very little idea why certain species are difficult to breed, or what methods might work to succeed. We can't do much about the lack of time and resources, but at least we can try to provide some of the information needed. The unfortunate side effect is... while we are providing information for keeping/breeding, I think we are also creating increased demand for salamanders...
 
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nicole

Guest
Ryan,

If you go to a good, small pet store they are more up-to-date on the law of the protected species in our state. There is a good one here in Coventry that I go to all the time. Also, if you google marbled salamanders in RI, it will bring you to a website set up by the state on the type of wild creatures native to the state and the protected status on them. From what I read (and remember), they did a field study on them back in 1997 and listed them protected back then. I was surprised and only found out after my husband caught one in our pool and gave it to me. After I found out, we released it and within a week found at least 5 more right outside our back door and going in and out of the pool.
 
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dawn

Guest
SO, OK, you Europeans, what North American newts and salamanders are you captive breeding over there?
Also, does anyone know if North American newts and salamanders get imported out of the US? i.e. to Europe, or are all of the North American newts in the European hobby cb? And what do you have over there?
And my last question for right now,
has anyone ever seen a taricha in a petstore east of the Mississippi (so to speak) or more specifically, in NY, CT, PA, or anywhere near where I live (NY) ?
 
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dawn

Guest
P.S. Jen, please don't feel bad that all the hard work you all do on this site is promoting more salamander keeping and not breeding! This thread is really inspiring me to try again and harder cb-ing my Notos. I have had some small success in at least raising eggs from wc pregnant Notos, and some huge disappointments, but knowing now how little cb-ing is being done and how important it is ecologically makes me want to keep trying.
 
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abrahm

Guest
Dawn, I know of a store in Green Bay, WI that sells Taricha. Not close to you, but east of the Mississippi.

I don't think the majority of people even stop to consider where their animals are coming from. I know my manager at the pet store I work at didn't even realize that 90% of the reptiles/amphibians we sell are wild caught. When I told her she was appalled. She thinks of herself as reasonably well informed, also. She's in school to be a vet technician and even worked in a small hot reptile zoo, but still had no idea.

The more people we can educate about the pet trade the better. People need to know about the high mortality of importation and necessity of buying captive bred animals. Right now it is cheaper for most pet stores (especially big chains) to import their animals. You'll more often see WC Ball pythons or White's Tree Frogs in Petco.

Jennifer, what do you know about breeding success of Plethodontidae in captivity? I heard Plethodon cinereus had been, but was it by people in the hobby or researchers? Any other lungless salamanders?
 

seandelevan

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<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>Quoting Dawn O. on Saturday 10 February 2007 - 22:56 (#POST120890):</font>

<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Yes used to see Taricha for sell all the time in pet stores in western NY and western PA, but that was 5 years ago or so....

I now live in VA and see Taricha for sale in many pet stores in the Peidmont area. In fact I bought myself one a few weeks ago.
 
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nicole

Guest
Call the pet stores. I know in CT (used to live there) that some of the pet stores (independently owned) will special order for you,
 
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dawn

Guest
My primary petstore knows that if they ever find any available to get them for me. That's how I got my Emperor Newt, they knew I wanted one.
I think they're just not as common as they used to be.
 
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john

Guest
Abrahm, from what i've read (mostly here and in some research papers) breeding in Pl. cinereus has been observed in the lab but I've not come across much in the way of confirmation of egg deposition and rearing of young. My presumption is that it has probably been done but not by hobbyists.

We have several people who have had some success at breeding and rearing Aneides Lugubris. E. bis has also been successfully bred in captivity.

Last year, I had success at getting both D. fuscus and D. ocrophaeus to yolk eggs in captivity but neither species deposited. Both were also first year wild caught specimens so it's very doubtful the breeding actually occurred in captive conditions.
 
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