Cloak & Shroud

[rolloverpudding]

Hi there,

New to the forum, bla-de-bla, the normal spiel. These are our two leucistic axolotls - Cloak is the male, Shroud is the female. Unfortunately Dagger had a fatal meeting with my partner's younger brother, who didn't understand them and tried to take her out of the tank. As she jumped out of his hands, he panicked and left her to die on the floor.

So no Cloak and Dagger anymore, but Cloak and our more recent addition, Shroud, who we've had since February of this year.

Here are a few photos: and before anyone even talks about substrate: we don't want to hear it, tyvm. We've had no problems with gravel before and won't go out of our way to change it. In fact they quite enjoy eating the gravel, it's a good size to pass through their systems anyway. They've always had gravel and we'll change it if and when we see fit, but until then we don't want to hear anything more. We've both read up on it, seen everyone's varying opinions, and I'm sure that anything anyone has to say about it is something we've heard before.

So, that aside: enjoy! Sorry about the quality - I only recently got a half-decent camera and haven't taken many new photos.

Cloak (top) & Shroud having a cuddle

Cloak (top) & Shroud

Shroud in the bubbles

Cloak (left) & Shroud (right), soon after we first got her - also showing the separator as all Cloak would do was try and eat her as she was so small! (Shroud was a surprise present from my mother, my partner did all the arranging and on the phone the guy said the axie was a 4-5 inches long. So our disappointment and worry when she arrived and was barely an inch long = lots)

Shroud's tiny feet soon after the time she first arrived with us


Lovely to join the forum and see all of your axoltols! We're hoping to expand our axolotl family in the near future so we'll let you know how that goes if we do.

 

[iChris]

your axies are looking good, but...

yes, I will point out the obvious and suggest you remove that substrate and no, they probably don't pass all of it when they do eat it and to make a generalisation that they do just proves your ignorance and your "head in the sand" (or gravel) attitude when it comes to being open to taking advice.

 

[iSuzie]

Do you want THIS to happen to your pets?
http://www.caudata.org/forum/attach...1281361165-axolotl-bloated-belly-dscf1444.jpg
Or THIS?
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g286/mrtanuki_2006/DSCN9575.jpg

I know you have said you dont want to hear it but you are going to.
No way are people going to sit by and look at axolotls on gravel and not say anything especially when the owner knows that it
DOES cause MAJOR problems INCLUDING DEATH, PAIN, BLOCKAGES, BLOATING and IMPACTION plus a lot more

All I can think is what poor animals this literately makes me feel sick and breaks my heart to know other owners are un-willing to provide the correct environment for their pets

Those picture have made me sad :sad:
And so upset by the fact that you are knowing just waiting for something bad to happen... Its just a bad situation for those poor axolotls to be kept in
:nono: :nono: :nono:​

 

[kiathepooch]

Your axies are cool,and their names i definitely like...

BUT

ditto with everyone else on the gravel front.

 

[rolloverpudding]

The reason we didn't want to hear anything about the substrate is because we've lost axolotls before, when the substrate was sand.

When they would suck, or "gulp" up their food, or sift through the bottom looking for extras (because we all know how greedy axolotls are), they would take in a large amount of sand which clogged up their bodies far worse. Eventually their bodies just couldn't take any more.

We changed to gravel after we lost our previous axis, and we've had Cloak for 3 years. He's been on gravel for those 3 years and he's had no problems. No bloating, blockage, impaction, etc, and no signs of stress or other symptoms. The tank environments were exactly the same save for the substrate.

While we understand that a lot of users on this forum do prefer sand, our personal experience of using sand has been a bad one, whereas we have had no issues with gravel.

Thank you for your concern, but we certainly don't appreciate being told that we don't care about our axolotls, iSuzie.

 

[kiathepooch]

You should mention the sand problem on a thread(it's somewhere in the axolotl section)as I think Jay was wondering about possible problems axolotls could have with it?


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=53.787387,-2.405320

 

[Loobylou]

Kudos to you for fighting your corner.

Do you mind if I ask what sand you had before? A lot of people do keep their axolotls on sand, as it is considered the 'safest' substrate available, however there have been threads by some members asking if it could in time cause impaction, or other problems.

It's interesting to see another point of view on the whole sand/gravel issue.

Have you tried other options such as bare bottomed tanks, or plastic aquarium grass? I'm thinking of removing the sand from some of my axie tanks and would appreciate an opinion from people who have tried other substrates .

 

[iSuzie]

I'm currently planing on a slate bottom substrate not because there is anything wrong with sand, but because it is going to make cleaning the tanks easier. I'm planing on using slate tiles and driftwood with live plants growing on the driftwood, with slate hides build into the slate tile bottom.
But the fact of the matter is, gravel has been proven to be bad for axolotls so why subject them to such a thing when there are multiple other options such as bare bottom tank, plastic bottom tank, slate bottom tank, very large river rocks and others... So while u think that gravel wont do anything to your pets, please know this. IT WILL

Here are some useful links that I HOPE will change your mind on using gravel.. They are OTHER options you could use rather than sand.

Caudata Culture Articles - Aquarium Substrates

http://www.caudata.org/forum/f46-be...rate/64617-new-slate-bottom-axolotl-tank.html

http://www.caudata.org/forum/f46-be...-substrate/71428-what-rocks-axolotl-safe.html

 

[HelloKitty]

such beautiful Axoltols, its a shame that you think they are safer on gravel than sand. Sooner or later they WILL swallow some gravel, that's if they haven't already. That gravel will either come out, causing your axies much discomfort. Or it will get stuck and they will die.

I have never had my Axies on gravel but they did live on it in the pet shop before I got them. 6 months after I got my pair Albie started attacking Aristotle and she lost a foot. He started getting really snappy and then his cloaca got really swollen and red. I separated them and didn't know why he suddenly started biting so much. Then he started floating all the time and wasn't pooping. Eventually he did poop and there was gravel in it. My poor boy had that in his tum for more than 6 months. Luckily he passed the poop that had been stuck and a few days later his bottom started healing. BTW there was what looked like blood on the gravel.

Anyway, I removed the separator and Albie seemed really happy to see Aristotle and there haven't been any more attacks since. Albie no longer floats and he is back to his happy self. But it could have gone horribly wrong.

Please please please take the gravel out. They can live on a bare bottom if need be. Lots of people on here don't use anything on the bottom of their tank.

I know this has already been said in many different ways but the gravel thing is the biggest no no when it comes to Axolotls. I have seen some heart breaking pictures in the sick axolotl section. I think my self so lucky that Albie passed his gravel ok but I worry that there could still be some in thier. Sand goes through a lot easier and most axoltols spit it back out as they are eating. You just got unlucky to lose yours to sand impaction.

 

[elninca]

IF YOU DECIDE ON A DIFFERENT SUBSTRATE​

If you're not keen on sand, why don't you go for large river stones? I have those in my tank because I have some concerns about sand as well. Have a look at the ones in my tank and see if your local hot dollar shop has any.

They're far too big for my axies to eat and they're also really heavy for them. They're easy to walk on and you can plant plants in between them easily.

JUST A SUGGESTION - No one go off at me for suggesting something different to sand please.

 

[Jenste]

Ok, so you have had a problem with sand....don't use sand. Simple solution.
Gravel is a known problem...don't use gravel. Simple solution.

Many other options - bare bottom, slate tiles, large river stone, or if you want to keep the patriotic gravel then take it out, shape it into the shape of your tank bottom and glue it into one solid mass rather than a bunch of tiny pieces which will be eaten.

You chose to keep axototls, so keep them right.

 

[natjobe]

Just sad you are on a forum where all these people have lots of experience and yet you are not willing to listen.They are not telling you all this to blow smoke up your .... But it is you who has to live with the consequences. We are just trying to help. Good luck!

 

[axigeek]

Your axi's look fat and happy :wacko: I also liked the tank divider, it looked very sturdy, but those rocks... how do you keep your tank clean?

Personally, my next tank is going to be bare bottom, which some people will suggest is stressful for axi's, but others will say its the way to go. Each to their own, I guess. I like the saying: if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all. I've lost count of how many times I should've followed that.

Anyway, I digress... can you take some more pics of the whole tank please, I'd like to see your set up :happy:

 

[scooty16]

I can't help but feel a bit lost in this thread. I feel like people have been snappy way too quickly with the gravel issue, but then again, the way the thread starter introduced the gravel situation was a bit hot headed, and perhaps people got way too defensive?

But that aside, these axolotls look beautiful and healthy and it seems that rolloverpudding has done a great job rearing them.

The gravel situation is alarming, but prehaps for someone who has lost their axolotls because of sand can make choosing a substrate daunting as they don't want the same thing to happen again. Its very sad losing a loved pet and I'm sure we all know how that feels. Maybe rolloverpudding is just very frightened of using sand again and doesn't want to loose their extremely beautiful axies, and is quite defensive about this matter.

However, the suggestions that have been made on other substrates are very good, and maybe if rolloverpudding has the chance to reply, they will consider using them. I for one am quite taken on the slate and river stones idea even though I currently have sand at the moment. :happy:

 

[rolloverpudding]

Hi all,

Sorry about getting worked up about the substrate - it's a touchy subject..! We've decided to try sand again as we did have a scare: Cloak had constipation from eating the gravel and passed a GINORMOUS poo, which was literally just a ball of gravel held together by poo. I'm not telling you all this to get the whole "I told you so", but as a warning to other owners. Axolotls do take a lot of care, gravel was easier to clean than sand which is something I worried about previously. My boyfriend refuses to let us try a bare-bottomed tank so I don't have a say in that unfortunately so after a lot of pestering on my part we decided to go with sand again and just be very careful and monitor everything. It may have been that our previous axies weren't fed often enough so felt the need to sift the sand and therefore swallow it more often..? Who knows. If only they could talk, eh?

Anyway, I'll upload some photos of our new setup. I splashed out on a new tank, complete with bigger filter and new ornaments. I think they're enjoying the space a bit more!

Thank you all for your support. It really upset me to hear that people thought we didn't care about our axolotls. They're family, and it's a hurtful thing to hear. I didn't mean to sound defensive/offensive in my posts but it got under my grill a bit

Thanks again x

 

[rolloverpudding]

Your axi's look fat and happy :wacko: I also liked the tank divider, it looked very sturdy, but those rocks... how do you keep your tank clean?

Personally, my next tank is going to be bare bottom, which some people will suggest is stressful for axi's, but others will say its the way to go. Each to their own, I guess. I like the saying: if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all. I've lost count of how many times I should've followed that.

Anyway, I digress... can you take some more pics of the whole tank please, I'd like to see your set up :happy:

the tank divider was a lid from one of those cracker boxes! A very makeshift solution, that in fact wasn't much of a solution: a number of times we would come home from work or wake up in the morning and find shroud on the other side of the divider with cloak! oh my gosh the panic!!

 

[Autistic Catholic]

That's awful way to die. I don't want to even believe that happened.