CO2 Ladders

R

richard

Guest
anybody have any experience with Co2 Ladders? anything that i should watch out for? Do they irritate newts? Any feedback on whether you like them or not and why would be appreciated.
 
well since I've already spent my money, can i remove the acidic properties of my water by adding some kind of diluted base to my water without harming my newt - or is the answer simply to do more water changes to dilute the acid instead of neutralizing it? If a homemade generator made from a 2L bottle can supply a 52 gallon tank for 2 weeks then is it logical to assume that a 380mL generator will supply a ten gallon tank for two weeks - this site gave me lots of good info - http://www.aquabotanic.com/DIYCO2.htm

(Message edited by richierich on December 30, 2006)
 
A better way to buffer against acidic pH is to add some form of calcium carbonate to the tank - limestone rocks, bird grit, Calci-sand, or crushed shells. These materials will slowly dissolve as needed, and won't result in the kind of rapid pH swings that you will get if you try to adjust the pH with base.

I know there are other people who have done CO2 supplementation in tanks with newts, but I don't specifically remember what they had to say about it. You might want to try some searches of the forum archives.
 
The PH is likely to be the main problem. If the PH buffer crashes the PH may drop to lethal levels very quickly. The additional CO2 does not displace O2, the concentrations are independent of one another. This means that cutaneous respiration by the newts shouldn’t be affected.

Make sure you have a well ventilated lid or the CO2 will sit heavy on the water surface. Newts coming up for air may suffocate – something fish keepers don’t have to worry about as much.
 
Thanks everyone. I guess I'm ready to install my ladder and generator now. I'll let you know how it works.

Rich
 
Kaysie, Jen, Mark
I've been thinking about what you guys said about the pH and i beg to differ about the lethality of the CO2 injection system. CO2 + H2O --> H2CO3 and then H2CO3 <--> H3O+ + HCO3-
this reaction has a very low ionization rate Due to the chemical structure of CO2 <o-c-o>(the linear shape cancels out the polarity). The CO2 reacts in very small amounts, and the acid that is produced, Carbonic Acid, is a rather weak acid. This causes the pH of my water, which happens to be 7 as I have tested it, to drop to a pH of 6.5. This is a pretty neutral standing. I'm no chemist, but I am confident that this is correct. Coupled with weekly water changes, the carbonic acid is not allowed a chance to reach substantial levels.

Mark - when you say a well ventilated lid do you mean like a fully open screen lid or just your average lid with lots of ventilation slats and screened-off filter holes?
 
another point may worth taking into account in high CO2 situations is the 'affinity competition' of CO2 bonding with animal's haemoglobin. if no physiological adaptations kick into action, blood CO2 in the caudate may increase to troublesome levels, regardless of O2 availability. don't you think?
 
Doesn't CO2 bond to a different section of the hemoglobin than O2? I thought CO and O2 bonded in the same place, and CO2 elsewhere. I don't believe that the ability for the hemoglobin to absorb O2 would be compromised
 
that's right, two different site on the haemoglobin molecule, but:
you may see it in different terms; higher CO2 increases acidity. affinity of O2 to haemoglobin drops as acidity rises (pH drops).
and so, under higher CO2 concentration, O2 binds less efficiently to the haemoglobin. thus, if no correcting adaptations come into play, the caudate may face O2 shortage in the tissues, even if O2 is high in the environment. what do u think?
 
My understanding Richard is that CO2 is heavier than the normal mix of air and so will sit on the surface of the water unless you ventilate it. I’m not sure of the level of ventilation you’d need. A screen mesh would probably be sufficient and if you were a paranoid a fan blowing over the surface. I suppose it would depend somewhat on the amount of CO2 you are producing and the size of the tank. You don’t want a surfacing newt to get a lung full of CO2.

I’m no chemist so I wont attempt to fathom the ph question. Google “pH/KH/CO2 relationship” (where KH is the buffer) and you should come up with some explanations. The topic is pretty well covered on a variety of aqua hobbyist websites.
 
A.Luongo- I'm sorry but I don't have that much experience in the field of biology(I haven't even started my grade 11 bio course), so I will have to take your word as it is. I am curious what kind of correcting adaptations you have in mind. I have been struggling to keep up with what you are suggesting to me, and researching everything before each post. If you have a lot of experience in this area, feel free to PM me, as i have considerable interest in this topic.
 
This is somewhat of an old post but reading some of the stuff here I can see there's some confusion over the possible ramifications of infusing CO2 into the water in order to promote plant growth. Here's a little of what I know to help people's understanding.

Physiology: In the hemoglobin molecule, oxygen binds to the ferrous heme molecule for transportation. The affinity (strength of bonding) of the heme for the oxygen is labile and is reduced by elevated temperatures, organic phosphate ligands, decreasing pH and increasing CO2. As you can see, CO2 can decrease oxygen affinity in two ways: by dissolving and producing protons (the 'acid' component) which will decrease pH and thereby reduce O2 affinity via the Bohr effect, and more directly by reacting with the hemogloben protein. The latter is accomplished by CO2 reacting with -NH2 on proteins to form carbamino compounds. The amount of carbamino formation depends on the number of available terminal NH2 groups on the proteins. The hemogloben molecule is comprised of 4 globen proteins; 2 alpha subunits and 2 beta subunits. In mammals, birds and reptiles, all the terminal NH2 groups are available for carbamino formation, but in fish and amphibians the terminal NH2 group of the alpha subunits are acetylated and therefore not available for carbamino formation. Hence, all boiled down into more simplistic terms, CO2 is not going to affect O2 transportation in amphibians as much as it does mammals, birds, or reptiles.

Ecology: Fact of the matter is that most salamanders inhabit acidic environments anyhow. Whether it be terrestrial or aquatic, the vast majority of salamanders live in areas with lots of moss and other proton secreting plants, and associated with acidic conditions. They prefer water that is usually slightly acidic (particularly bog species) and frequently low in oxygen (due to high detritus and decomposition rates). The reduction in pH due to CO2 defusion is going to be rather small unless one is infusing extremely high amounts of CO2 and maintaining the aquarium under high pressure.

Mark does have a point of CO2 being heavier than O2, but this is usually only going to be a concern over land, not water. CO2 is highly dissolvable in water where O2 is not. The condition that typically results in hypercapnic waters (elevated CO2) is deeper waters have high CO2 low O2, surface water is the opposite. As long as circulation is maintained, you shouldn't develop a problem.
 
Now that is a non-typical first post! Thanks for the science lesson Colin. This is straying somewhat from the original topic but you mention that most salamanders inhabit acidic environments. There have been warnings posted on this site in the past against using long fiber sphagnum moss as a substrate because of it's acidity (I also realize that most salamanders do not live in peat bogs). I have used it quite often in the past but have since stopped because of these warnings. What is your take on this?
Chip
 
Thanks, Chip. I've been studying out of a respiratory physiology lab for most of the last decade and my first research project was on control of breathing in amphibians so it's a field I'm a little familiar with.

As for using sphagnum moss as a substrate, there's pros and cons. I don't particularly like it personally, but that's because it is typically dead. The acidity aspect is quite misleading, in my opinion. Yes, sphagnum moss is quite acidic, but like I've said, most salamanders do inhabit acidic environments. Maybe not a lot are in bogs, but bogs aren't the only acidic environment. Coniferous forest soils are notoriously acidic, tropical leaf litter and water run off are usually acidic, heck most rainfall absorbs CO2 from the atmosphere and is slightly acidic. It's just that everyone has this "mental" image of acid eating up flesh, and that's simply not true with most acids until you get rather high molar concentrations. Basic/alkaline pH is far more corrosive. When preserving specimens for museum collections, they warn that when using buffered formulin solutions, you don't want the pH to be above about 7.4 as it will degrade the tissue.

For most amphibians, pH's down to 6 are usually quite favourable, some go much further and are happy down to 4.
 
As an addendum, I looked up a few facts around pH and amphibians. Normal rain is saturated with carbon dioxide and typically has a pH of 5.6-5.8. Except in a few acidophilic species, most amphibians are quite happy down to pH of about 5. Peat sphagnum (not Sphagnum moss) typically has pH in the range of 3.5-5.5. With my limited resources at home, I haven't been able to uncover the pH of living Sphagnum moss. It is quite possible that it will reduce pH below 5.0 if left to sit. This would be a problem, but where I think the greater problem from Sphagnum moss usage isn't necessarily from the pH drop (unless this drops below 5 but I hope most people regularly change their water AND substrate) but from the moss's characteristic of absorbing ions and minerals, which would lead to ionoregulatory problems in the salamander. It has been frequently studied for its ability to absorb metals, minerals, etc. as it leaches all nutrients from the water. Bottom line, I don't recommend Sphagnum moss either.
 
Hi Colin, welcome to the forum and thanks for providing some very interesting information. I think the general feeling is that whilst many salamanders live in habitats containing areas of low ph they have access to retreats where the ph is more neutral. Experiments have shown that many Plethodontid salamanders have a preference for hides with neutral ph. Problems in captivity occur when the animal is constantly subjected to low ph i.e. an enclosure with an acidic substrate such as sphagnum. Keeping the salamanders on a substrate with a pH of 4 or less for extended periods has been shown to be lethal (Bille, 2000). http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0022-1511%28200012%2934%3A4%3C588%3AMUOTMS%3E2.0.CO%3B2-O&size=LARGE

With regards to the CO2 being heavy I was referring the air space above the water.

PS: Sorry, posted my reply without seeing your addendum
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(Message edited by aartse_tuyn on April 10, 2007)
 
Ya hi, I have used those things befor and they realy messed up my water. Also dident see alot of benafits. I dont use them any more and my tanks are alot happier.
 
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