Debate about Bombina orientalis populations/colour variances

[Ezequiel Nahuel]

Hi all.
I created this thread to debate about Bombina orientalis populations / colour variances.
One thing: I´m not very good at genetic.
Until now, there is no B. orientalis subspecies. It is said that there are two “forms” or "varieties": the Russian and the Korean.
The Koreans are from olive green to bright green.
The Russians (also known as "golden") are from very dark brown to yellowish brown.
Here is a post on Frog Forum where explains that:
http://www.frogforum.net/fire-belly-toads-bombina/101-bombina-orientalis.html
And now, the problem: Kurt shows two pictures (taken from Amphibia Web) about the two "forms". According to him, the brown B. orientalis is Russian but if you click on "View Details" (over the picture), it explains that the photo was taken in Korea! So, it doesn´t have sense.
In my opinion, there is no difference between the populations or there is a unique population (sorry if this sounds stupid). I don´t think that it has to be said that there are two varieties only because they are different in colouration.
As far as I know, Bombina can change of colour depending on different factors like mood, lighting, plants, water quality, temperature, humidity…
What I want to do is that people who has both “forms” show/comment us what differences they can see (except colouration, obviously) between them but you have to be sure of the origin of the specimen.
Bye
PD: Excuse my English.

 

[joeysgreen]

I havn't kept them in ages, but do know that for some reason when you breed the green forms in captivity, all of the offspring are the brown form. The suggests something other than genetics is helping the frogs gain that awesome green colouration. With the recent finding that algae is a intracellular symbiont in some salamanders (spotted I believe), the possibilities are endless!

I also have experienced in the field that many amphibian species are quite variable in colouration even in the same locality. I can find three different base colours of boreal toad at my two favorite local sites. Chorus frogs are just as varied around here, with yellow, lime green, brown, and everywhere inbetween found at nearly every water body. Some amphib's will have a vertebral stripe, while many even in the same clutch will not. There are tonne's of examples.

So unfortunately, I think the anwers you are seeking will need to come from someone not in the pet trade, but from someone who has spent some time herping in the far NE of Asia.

 

[Ezequiel Nahuel]

I havn't kept them in ages, but do know that for some reason when you breed the green forms in captivity, all of the offspring are the brown form. The suggests something other than genetics is helping the frogs gain that awesome green colouration. With the recent finding that algae is a intracellular symbiont in some salamanders (spotted I believe), the possibilities are endless!

I also have experienced in the field that many amphibian species are quite variable in colouration even in the same locality. I can find three different base colours of boreal toad at my two favorite local sites. Chorus frogs are just as varied around here, with yellow, lime green, brown, and everywhere inbetween found at nearly every water body. Some amphib's will have a vertebral stripe, while many even in the same clutch will not. There are tonne's of examples.

So unfortunately, I think the anwers you are seeking will need to come from someone not in the pet trade, but from someone who has spent some time herping in the far NE of Asia.

Thanks for the reply.
I have a friend that have bred them for three years and says that independently of parents´ colouration, the offspring are always 50% green-50% brown or so.
Bye

 

[Joost]

The colour in B. orientalis is highly variable, wherever they come from. So on colour it isn't quite possible to determine them. However I also think there are more forms. I've kept this species for about 16-17 years, and I have noticed differences in their body. I've had some males with long slender front limbs, and some with short body-building kinda like. Breeding wasn't possible between some of these couples. I saw females full of eggs, but they didn't accept to mate with some males.

 

[Ezequiel Nahuel]

However I also think there are more forms. I've kept this species for about 16-17 years, and I have noticed differences in their body. I've had some males with long slender front limbs, and some with short body-building kinda like. Breeding wasn't possible between some of these couples. I saw females full of eggs, but they didn't accept to mate with some males.

That´s interesting.
Could do you post some photos of the different forms you notice?
Bye

 

[joeysgreen]

Is it possible that some are not Bombina orientalis? The unfortunate part of animals once they are in the pet industry is that their place of origin is lost. I don't know the genus that well, but there are other species.

Also of note, is that there will be some individual physical variation. Just like I'm tall and skinny, another may be short and stalky. The male characteristic of thick forearms in anurans is a gradient between skinny and female-like, and very short and fat. However with the declined ability to mate, there is at least some evidence to suggest that there are incompatable species. Have you noticed differences in calls?

 

[FrogEyes]

It is possible that there are other species, but they would be cryptic species currently included in B.orientalis. Identifying such would require extensive sampling and study for the species throughout its Asian range. The Bombina maxima complex is placed in a different subgenus, is subtropical, and would be hard to confuse. Two of the three European species are in the pet trade here, and all three are easily identified.

 

[caleb]

I've had some males with long slender front limbs, and some with short body-building kinda like

There's some suggestion that the 'body-building' animals are Korean, and the others are Chinese. I have also heard that 'Russian' individuals are always 100% brown- no green spots on the back.

The stock I bred from some years ago (mistakenly sold as B. bombina) were slender in build, and light brown with 2-4 large green spots on their back. All the offspring were similarly coloured.

I was recently sent some metamorphs from a UK breeder who claims that his stock is 100% big-armed and green. He told me that they are brown at metamorphosis, but the green colour develops after at least six weeks. Mine are indeed gradually becoming greener, though all but one are still predominantly brown. The green seems to appear first on the legs.

There was some dicussion about green B. maxima here not long ago:
http://www.caudata.org/forum/f53-ot...bellied-toads/71296-green-bombina-maxima.html

 

[Joost]

Unfortunately I don't have pictures of these animals I was talking about. These animals were my breeding groups of years ago. At that time I didn't have a camera.

Soon I have some B. orientalis, from Korea with detailed locality data.

 

[Ezequiel Nahuel]

Hi all.
Joost, that differences you mentiones, couldn´t be produced by ambiental plasticity? The life conditions during larvae stage could produce those little differences between different specimens.
Remember males have stronger and a bit longer arms that females´. Calcium in the diet could help too.
I think those differences you commented aren´t enough "strong" to say that there are different forms.
I have a CB juvenil, it is a beautiful green. An yes, the first or second month after metamorphosis, it was an ugly brown.
Bye

 

[Joost]

The animals I had in those days were wildcaught. So I don't know if it's caused to the larval lifestage. I wouldn't think so. Nature always has a way to survive, and a 'deformation' (or perhaps a mutation?) sure can happen, but in a lot of cases?

 

[Ezequiel Nahuel]

The animals I had in those days were wildcaught. So I don't know if it's caused to the larval lifestage. I wouldn't think so. Nature always has a way to survive, and a 'deformation' (or perhaps a mutation?) sure can happen, but in a lot of cases?

I don´t think ambiental plasticity produces mutations or deformations.
During larval stage, the muscles of the tadpole´s tail, after metamorphosis, form the muscles of the legs. So, while longer the tail is, longer will be the legs after metamorphosis.
If you feed a tadpole with a vegetarian diet, it will need a longer intestine, so it will need a larger body size.
If the pond has an overpopulation of tadpoles, they will segregate some sustances that will inhibit tadpoles´ development.
If the water level is low and it´s drying, the tadpoles will accelerate their growth. So, their body size will be smaller.
I think, that´s the reason of the appearance of Joost´s B. orientalis.
Bye

 

[caleb]

I've managed to find a couple of published photos that include locality data:

Kuzmin's 'Amphibians of the former Soviet Union' includes photos of green B. orientalis from two locations in the Primorye province, and one photo of a brown individual, with light markings on the 'neck'. None of these look anything like the 'Russian' individuals in the pet trade.

Zhao's 'Herpetology in China' includes a photo of a green animal from Shandong province.

 

[joeysgreen]

Very nice Caleb; that's the sort of information that really adds to this sort of discussion

Where'd you get those books?

 

[caleb]

Where'd you get those books?

'Herpetology in China' was a duplicate from the British Herpetological Society library- I swapped it for a donation of some books I no longer needed.

'Amphibians of the Former Soviet Union' came from a second-hand bookseller via AbeBooks. It was not cheap.

 

[evereen]

From eight years I have green Bombina orientalis. Their offspring after 2-3 months of make on the color green.
Two years ago I bought an adult brown female, which sold as Bombina orientalis (I loved it.) Unfortunately, she didn't want to create a pair with green male. I managed to buy a brown male (from the same dealer) and she accepted him. All their offspring are brown, even after reaching adulthood.
female, male, their young children

You can see a slight difference in the behavior of brown and green: brown are shy, spending most of his life in the water or in hiding places, they catch directly from water all insects flying over. I think that it is a subspecies, but this is only my mind when I see them..
The problem is that the bombina can interbreed with each other. So I think that in breeding amateur Bombina orientalis (subspecies Russia / Korea / China) are exactly mixed.

Regard

 

[evereen]

I forgot to add - yes, yes, green Bombina orientalis change their color depending on the terms on a bright green, dark green, and even almost black-green (for example, when the temperature is significantly lowered). But not brown.

 

[jkooiman]

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Are these common in Europe? I apologize if this not pertinent to the subject, or has been discussed before. Thanks, JVK

 

[Ezequiel Nahuel]

From eight years I have green Bombina orientalis. Their offspring after 2-3 months of make on the color green.
Two years ago I bought an adult brown female, which sold as Bombina orientalis (I loved it.) Unfortunately, she didn't want to create a pair with green male. I managed to buy a brown male (from the same dealer) and she accepted him. All their offspring are brown, even after reaching adulthood.
female, male, their young children

You can see a slight difference in the behavior of brown and green: brown are shy, spending most of his life in the water or in hiding places, they catch directly from water all insects flying over. I think that it is a subspecies, but this is only my mind when I see them..
The problem is that the bombina can interbreed with each other. So I think that in breeding amateur Bombina orientalis (subspecies Russia / Korea / China) are exactly mixed.

Very good data.
A friend also told me that brown ones use to like sex/amplexing more that the green ones .
I observed that brown ones have bigger heads and bigger body.
In my opinion, that male looks like B. maxima with no so big tubercles.
I asked the same question, jkooiman. As far as I know, the men who breeds those B. orientalis form claimed that the reason is natural selection but I´m not sure. Those Bombina are common in Czech Republic.
Bye

 

[jkooiman]

Sorry, I should have searched

Also sorry for no introduction. I used to post on here about ten years ago, forgot my screenname. Anyways, hello Caudata family, my name is Jesse.

An earlier post mentioned B. maxima being "subtropical". I thought this was quite the opposite, please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks. JVK