Green vs. Brown?

[michael]

Kinda curious what the difference is with the brown & green fire bellies? I have 3 brown & 1 green now & the brown ones are REALLY happy. I have a pair that are working on mating, the male keeps grabbing the female around the waist & holding on & making cute little chirping sounds. I just got some grassy plants for in the water for them to lay eggs on if they want.
Anyhow, the green one doesn't seem real happy now. He/she used to be real active but the last couple days it's been staying on the land most of the time & not moving around much. Are these different species that should be separated? Or should I just get another green one or two for company?

 

[pollywog]

Toads of the 2 colours will live together very happily, I would think that it is more than likely that she does not want to be grabbed, if the males are in the water amplexing the other toads every time they enter the water the unreceptive toads will stay on dry land away from them, entering the water only when necessary. It is normal behaviour.

 

[michael]

Oh, good. I was a little worried about her. I figure it is a female since I've never heard her sing like I do the new one I got.
Thanks!

 

[djedgone]

I have 4 Fire-bellies...2 little guys and 2 big ones. The big ones used to be very active and for the past few days have turned a darker green/almost brown and seem lethargic...but are still eating OK. They don't go in the water anymore. Could it be the neon tetra fish I have in the water? There's only 4 little fish and plenty of water. Help.

<font color="ff0000">I fixed your post. Please don't use use bold all capital letters next time, it hurts our eyes.</font>

(Message edited by apples on February 03, 2005)

 

[pollywog]

What temp do you have the water at?

 

[live2surf]

room temperature....around 70ish I assume. The heat does not go higher than 73 in the house. They just look sick and the 2 big guys look like they are turning brown. I don't know if thats ok or not. please get back to me. thanks!

 

[han]

Move the poor ones to a 25 gallon set up (at least!), 80% water, only 2 inches deep with lots of floating plants and some hiding-spots (submerged, half-submerged and dry); take care of a good water-quality by using a filtration-system.
Water-temp 16C (early spring) up to 24C (max., summer). Air-temp slightly higher.
Many toads suffer a droopy existence under a single tiny light-bulb. Bombina needs a lot of light to flourish: use at least 2 fluorescent tubes above the set-up for about 8 hours a day (this season) gradually increasing up to 14 hours
(spring/summer), and use a small spot-light to create a basking-spot.
Ventilation as much as possible: screen-top, front,sides, back.
Food? Earthworms. (drown the crickets and burn the meal-worms).
Done? You just did your "guys" a big favour.

Han.

 

[edward]

Hi Han,
What is the problem with feeding the toads crickets?

Ed

 

[han]

Hi Ed,
Crickets are hard to digest, their nutritious value, despite "gut-loading" and dusting, far below average, causing indigestion, bloat, eye-trouble and swimming-problems, especially in combination with wrong temps and lighting. Wild-caught worms contain everything (and more) Bombina needs to live a healthy life in captivity. Earthworms of course, need to be part of a varied diet: moths, spiders, wild-caught flies and slugs.
People using crickets for food tend to use only one food-item, the easy to get McCricket.

Han.

 

[edward]

Hi Han,

It is true that crickets straight from the store and/or from the mail are lacking in some vitamins, protiens and fats but once fed for at least 48 hours are suitable as a food item.
As fed commecially available crickets contain (usable corrected for chitin) 1.0 kcal/gram as compared to earthworms which are 0.5 kcal/gram. This is due to the high water content of the worm.
Earthworms are higher in protien and lower in fat based on dry matter analysis (but this may be different as fed) than crickets but the ranges of both are within the Metabolic requirements of amphibians and reptiles.
With the reference to cloudy eye I am assuming you mean corneal lipidosis and this has been linked to almost all commercially available food sources not just crickets.
Do you have any references to bloat and indigestion for crickets? I do not have any in the literature I have available to me refrencing crickets, maggots yes, crickets no. I suspect that overfeeding of crickets could potentially result in bloating if the temperature was too cool for proper digestion but this could occur with almost any food source.
And can you explain about the problems swimming?

Ed

 

[han]

Hi Ed

Sorry for the delay but i just checked this thread
again and found out that there were some issues left unanswered.
You're probably right there's a link between food and temperature when it comes to indigestion and bloat, but preliminary to their winters resting period (temps 50 to 59F) i've always fed Bombina a diet consisting entirely of earthworms and never had any problem (for the last 18 years): good shape,well-fed,lively and no indigestion or bloat, easy winters resting period of some 10 weeks (41 to 50F). I've seen Bombina at fellow-keepers and entirely on "gutloaded/dusted" crickets, that wouldn't even survive a 2 week "hibernation", their overall appearance lethargic and skinny (legs), their bellies swollen.
In my "crusade" against McCricket i'm very willing to assume that the swimming-problems i mentioned are also caused by a bad (cricket)diet: the toads seem out of balance while in the water, and are only able to swim in small circles, one side submerged, skinny, hardly able to feed. I've seen one adult female Bombina orientalis suffering this strange disease myself, heard about others. Diet? Crickets.
She was placed in a small tank with a damp paper-towl to sit on and a flowerpot to hide under. No food was offered for about a week and than she got earthworms (my advice)for food for another week. Once put back in the water there was no trace left of the circular swimming. This was some 2 years ago. She is still alive and doing fine......on crickets.

Han.

 

[joshua]

Han, I had a firebellied toad do the swollen thing, and it wasn't because of crickets, or temperatures, it was a disease. I've heard of a few peoples frogs getting it too, mine was the only firebellied toad that I heard of that had it.
It's definately not that common, and I had yet to hear of a frog that survived it.
I beleive it may be due to cross toxicity, or pathogens spreading from other places. I had my firebelly in with some "crab eating frogs" Rana cancrivora. They all died shortly after the firebellied toad died of the bloating.

 

[edward]

Hi Han,
I strongly suspect that there is some other item going on there other than the nutritional contents of the crickets (you would need a necropy to confirm your point on this) as this is not supported in the literature or in my experience. I have FBTs that have been fed a diet of nothing but crickets for years now (close to 7 or 8 or so for them) with no losses. I have had multiple reproductions ( I have a tadpole I am rearing right now that I found in the canister filter where it escaped the Cynops cyanureus) over the years. In the winter the temperature gets down close to 55 F (sorry I don't have a conversion handy) and there is a reduction in feeding intensity so I feed less often and smaller food items.

I would suspect that there is a possibility of supplemet issues, a possibility that a stomach or intestine was pierced by an ovipositor, or an animal has impacted due to over eating but these are speculations and need a necropsy to prove/disprove them.

Ed

 

[pollywog]

"I have had multiple reproductions ( I have a tadpole I am rearing right now that I found in the canister filter where it escaped the Cynops cyanureus) over the years."
Ed, Are you keeping C.cyanureus in the same tank as the Bombina, or were you using the Bombina tadpoles to feed the Cynops?

 

[edward]

Hi Andrew,

I think the correct answer is both, although the eggs are usually eaten before they even get to hatch.

This group has been together now for over ten years.

Ed

 

[chris]

I am not sure of the range of the Asian Bombina - is one of the species sympatric with Cynops cyanurus?
Chris

 

[edward]

I'd have to look Chris.

This was not my idea, it was the excurator where I work so its not something I would have probably done on my own but I do have to say that it works well.

Ed

 

[pollywog]

I believe that the range of C.cyanurus overlaps with B.maxima but not B.orientalis.

 

[andrew]

I have had two oriental firebellies for the last three-four years. Uhmm, since spring 2001. For the first few years they ate crikets meal worms, and wax worms. Crickets being there favorite. For the last three weeks, i got a batch of flightless fruitflies to see what would happen. Only one of my toads likes them. He now spends all his time outside the water waiting for a stray fly, which happens 2 a minute. He feeds on them all day. The other one sometimes decides to eat a fly, but usually ignores them.
Neither one like to eat earthworms and often (lately) reject wax worms.
My toads are always changing color from dark dark green to a pretty light green. I dont know what causes each color. Also, I do notice that they are dark green in the water, but after a few minutes out of the water they turn light green, could this be it?
What do others think? Are my frogs crazy or normal?