grey tree frogs

[sophie]

hi all, i'm new to these forums, usually found on RFUK. was just wondering could anyone point me in the direction of a good care sheet for these guys?
thanks in advance

 

[Kurt]

John Claire and I are working on one for http://www.FrogForum.net Just waiting for John to finish his part.

 

[John]

I hope to finish it early this weekend.

I'm going to call you Kert, Kurt .

 

[Kurt]

I'm going to call you Kert, Kurt .

Huh? Why?

 

[Azhael]

Well, you called him Claire xD

It´s only fair

 

[Kurt]

Oh I see, I misspelled his last name. D'oh! So sorry John. My deepest apologies.

 

[malduroque]

Sophie,

You should be able to find a care sheet for American Green Tree Frogs (Hyla cinerea) easily enough and the same considerations apply to Greys. I currently have 4 greys and 4 greens together in a large semi-tropical setup and have kept greens and greys many times over the years.

A variety of food is always helpful. Crickets, grasshoppers, various fly species, small moths and some crawling insects like earwigs work great.

If you have any questions, feel free to contact me.

Respectfully,
Mal

 

[Kurt]

I wouldn't reccomend mixing the two species. There could be some cross contamination.

 

[John]

I wouldn't reccomend mixing the two species. There could be some cross contamination.

Don't encourage him. He's a forum troll - see the red reputation?

 

[malduroque]

It was said:
"Don't encourage him. He's a forum troll - see the red reputation?"

No dearest founder, I am not a troll and if I understood correctly we aren't supposed to make personal attacks here. You just made one when you publicly tried to prejudice Kurt's (and others) opinion towards me. The red reputation comes from the fact that my main post was controversial (species mixing), my responses were at times sarcastic and even disrespectful so more people gave me red reps than green ones. Simple as that. I also say here that my tone will hereon not be disrespectful towards anyone and the sarcasm will be kept to an absolute minimum as long as I am afforded the same courtesy.

Kurt said:
"I wouldn't recommend mixing the two species. There could be some cross contamination."

Your recommendation is noted, but honestly, it's not a problem. As I've said, I've had several setups with this combination (and others) over the years. This "never, ever mix any species" notion is a relatively recent, internet spread phenomenon. In fact I would almost call it a myth, an urban legend. It probably started as something productive and useful like 'be very careful which species you mix' then morphed and simplified over time into the glib absolutism that we hear now. But, I don't wish to rehash this debate. I really don't. I will add though that a pro herpetologist and author whom you all respect, Frank Indiviglio, is also a "species mixer" and has noted examples on his blog including greens and greys together.

Respectfully,
Mal

 

[froggy]

Is it OK to avoid having the same argument that was had here :
http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=61510 ?

This is a thread about conditions for keeping grey treefrogs, not about species mixing.

Chris

 

[Kurt]

Don't encourage him. He's a forum troll - see the red reputation?

That's why I responded. I felt the original poster needed correct information.

I will say that sometimes species can be mixed, but there are very few examples. One of the few that comes to mind is Hyla cinerea and H. gratiosa. These species are know to cross breed in the wild, as does Ambystoma jeffersonianum and A. laterale. If I were to mix Hyla versicolor it would only be with H. chrysoscelis and even then I am not so comfortable with that. If one were to mix species, one should do so in the largest possible enclosure. In the wild most species don't hang with their own kind, never mind other frog species.

Also my notion of not mixing species does not come from any Internet source. I, too, am a herpetologist with the New England Herpetological Society, formerly of Harvard University's Museum of Natural History and the Boston Museum of Science. I have been working and studying frogs for many years and my notion comes from two primary sources, experience and literature. I take very little from the Internet as anyone can write what ever they want and often do.

 

[John]

I herp regularly within the range of Hyla cinerea. It coincides with H. versicolor here. In my experience they do not share habitat very much and they use different breeding pools (H. cinerea has a stronger preference for permanent water whereas H. versicolor is almost strictly ephemeral pools). Aside from the climate and geography, these two species do not coexist in proximity.

 

[malduroque]

Kurt said:
"That's why I responded. I felt the original poster needed correct information. "

Kurt, my red spot scarlet letter, at least judging by the comments accompanying them, comes from a perception of general rudeness and sarcastic attitude on my part in my first spate of posts a month or so ago, not from any bad info. Again, all forums have different dynamics for communicating and now that I understand caudata.org's protocols I think I can fit right in now.

As for species mixing, I certainly respect your opinion though it appears that not all herpetologists are in agreement. See my reference to Frank Indiviglio. Perhaps it is age (generation), personal experience or mentor's influence that colors each opinion. I don't know.

My personal experience, and just for some perspective though I am strictly a hobbyist, I've been herping since the mid 1960's, says that green and gray can coexist and thrive in the same setup.

Though I certainly defer to you in knowledge, my experiences are real and valid. However, if anyone is reading this and is unsure whether or not to species mix, I suggest that you thoroughly research it, taking in all informed opinions with particluar emphasis on 'the pros' such as Kurt and Frank Indiviglio to name a few. We have a wonderful opportunity here thanks to the internet where we can correspond with pros and long time hobbyists rather than writing to a unversity biology depatment with a couple of questions and getting either no response or a 'go away kid, you bother me' return which was often my experience back in the old days.

Again, I don't want to drag this out as I feel most people have made up their minds up about this subject and have seen it debated enough before. If you wish to discuss this further, we need not do it here. Feel free to PM me if so inclined.

Respectfully,
Mal

 

[Kurt]

I went back and read some of your original posts and from what I can see, you just got off on the wrong foot with these guys. I found a lot of your statements valid, whether I agreed with them or not. I do find people prefer things to be black and white, be we all know they rarely are. I agree and I assume you do as well, that newbies should avoid mixing amphibian species. Am I correct in this assumption?

I am not going to argue with you whether Hyla versicolor and H. cinerea can be housed together. I just ask that you don't advocate it too the inexperienced.

 

[malduroque]

Kurt said:
"I agree and I assume you do as well, that newbies should avoid mixing amphibian species. Am I correct in this assumption?"

Yes, I'm in agreement with you. Though it was a long, long time ago, I can still remember my own species mixing and bad terrarium setup disasters as a neophyte.

In the original exchanges, I eventually realized that 'newbie conditioning' was the main purpose of the anti-species mixing page on this site and from that point I understood better where they were coming from. Besides, quixotry is not worth the effort.

I did though advocate for a page showing the positive side of the issue, but I also realized that from their standpoint, that would compromise or call into question the original purpose. I still maintain that the page borders on sensationalistic (and to those who misunderstood this earlier contention of mine, 'sensationalistic' does not necessarily mean 'untrue'), but I think the feeling around here of those in authority is that the end justifies the means.

But hey, that's the policy, I have been given my opinions on it and it can now be laid to rest from my standpoint.

All the best,
Mal

 

[Kurt]

I have not read this species mixing article you have mentioned, so I cannot comment on it either way. I can say species mixing is possible but only with a small hand full of species, but should only be done by experienced keepers. Keep in mind that zoos don't always get it right. I consider myself an experienced keeper, but I still don't house different amphibian species together. So if one is to do so, one must think long and hard about it. What could possibly go wrong? Is it worth the risk?

 

[John]

I'm a bit behind on my article - I am hoping to finish it tonight.

 

[John]

I haven't finished the breeding section yet but here is frogforum's Gray Treefrog Care Article/Caresheet.

 

[malduroque]

John,

I just read it and I commend you on it. Nice work. In it you mention small earthworms as a food. Would you say that this item is accepted by some, most or virtually all grey tree frogs? Other tree frogs species too? I ask because I have never, ever gotten a tree frog (I've had mostly North and South American species) to take an earthworm. In fact, it was such a futile endeavor that I gave up on it and haven't tried it for years. Your mention of it makes me want to give it another try and I was just curious if it's species specific and how much it may be individual tree frog specific.

Mal