H.orientalis female over 10 cm

Jesper

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Hey, just wanted to report that my old H.orientalis female is a little bit over 10cm long( and I do not think she is a black swan ;) ) as I saw some claims that H.orientalis do not reach 10cm. Shouldnt really come as a surprise as they grow throughout their life and I suspect we rarely see animals over 10 years old. I have had this animal for 6-7 years and she came to me as an adult, most likely WC.
 

Azhael

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I think it was mentioned that the record length was 11cm or close to that. This is very rare, though, and a 10cm female is certainly a big old, lovely freak.

By the way, Jesper, sorry if this is too off-topic but how are the young ones i sent you doing? I´d love to hear from them :p
 

Jennewt

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Here are photos of one H. orientalis female that I owned for a while. The graph paper is 4 squares/inch, which puts her at about 11-12 cm. I was told by a respected breeder that this animal must be C. pyrrhogaster because this size is impossible for orientalis. What do you guys think?
 

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Greatwtehunter

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Looks every bit of orientalis to me. Just because someone hasn't seen it yet doesn't make it impossible. ;)
 

Molch

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size estimates in the literature may be based on field collected animals. Captive animals can probably live longer than many wild caught ones and therefore be bigger in old age.
 

froggy

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I have one female that is 10cm and is only 4ish years old. She was Cb by a friend of Morg's and, I believe, was reared aquatically. Oddly, a half-sibling of the same animal, a male, is only a year younger and is quite small for a male, although he is growing.
 

Jesper

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Yeah, C.orientalis in my book. Congrats Jen, you are now the official holder of the Caudata.org world record for orientalis length.:D

Hmm, what's your feeding schedule for these guys btw?
 

froggy

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If the feeding question was directed at me, I feed mixed live foods every few days (as in, one type of food per feeding, but changing the type across feedings). They mainly get bloodowrm and chopped earthworms. They don't seem to know what to do with Tubifex once it has all balled up, so I don't use it very often.

The huge female was reared to adulthood before I got her - I have had her for nearly a year - and I'm not sure about feeding schedules/food offered before then.

Jen's huge female certainly does look orientalis, but it has a lot of black on the belly compared with any others that I've seen, which are generally almost completely red with a few tiny round blotches.

C
 

Jesper

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Well, I would assume that not only age is a factor but also access to food. I tend to keep mine quite slim compared to most I have seen and it has taken ages for them to develop. Other groups I have kept have developed much quicker because I was feeding them 2 to 3 times per week. I get Jens animal to 11.5cm btw.
 

Azhael

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I´m a bit stumped with that female of yours, Jen. Everything says orientalis, the shape of the head, the tail, the cloacal coloration, even the clearly visible lateral line and yet...there is something odd in the belly. The shape and arrangement of the black marks reminds me a lot of pyrrhogaster juveniles, but not of any orientalis i´ve ever seen up close.

Age and access to food certainly are very important factors in determining the size of caudates but there must be a genetic component too. I have a CB male, i think 3 years old by now (i´d have to check), he is fully mature in every way but he is tiny at perhaps a bit less than 5,5cm long. It´s certainly not a matter of food as he is a little pig and i´m rather generous with the orientalis because of the ever present larvae. He is adorable, though...there is a definite inverse correlation between size and cuteness.
 
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Otterwoman

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size estimates in the literature may be based on field collected animals. Captive animals can probably live longer than many wild caught ones and therefore be bigger in old age.
On the other hand, I think P. waltl never get as big in captivity as the do in the wild?
 

Yahilles

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I agree with Azhael, everything looks like orientalis, except for the size, and the belly markings. Perhaps... a hybrid?
Another mind, FrogEyes said, there might be couple of different species recognized as H.orientalis and some of them might be bigger than others.

On the other hand, I think P. waltl never get as big in captivity as the do in the wild?
I think specimens over 30 cm are not really rare in captivity.
 

FrogEyes

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Here are photos of one H. orientalis female that I owned for a while. The graph paper is 4 squares/inch, which puts her at about 11-12 cm. I was told by a respected breeder that this animal must be C. pyrrhogaster because this size is impossible for orientalis. What do you guys think?
It's no Cynops. It has all the diagnostic features of Hypselotriton, specifically orientalis, and none of those for Cynops. Tail shape, skin texture, arched back, black bar across the vent - all typical H.orientalis. As someone else said, just because they haven't been seen that big doesn't make it impossible. We also know that coloration can vary both between populations and with age, so I would consider the extensive belly markings inconsequential. I've seen similar in smaller animals.
 

jewett

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Here are some pics of my largish female Ho. She is about 10cm in length so not the biggest like Jen's animal but not a small fry, either. I have had her for several years, and got her from someone on my local classifieds who no longer wanted her.
She is one of my favorite animals - I have totally anthropomorphised her but she just seems to me to be a refined old dame, more calm and not prone to the wild feeding frenzy shenanigans of her tank mates - though she was fairly displeased with this whole photo shoot. I rarely name my newts but I have named her, "Big Black Maria" after that Tom Waits song (which I know is not a super dignified song for such a dignified gal but it popped into my head one day as I was gazing fondly at her, and it just stuck).
And I must use the same graph paper as Jen, because the dimensions are the same - 4 squares/inch.
So enjoy!
Heather
 

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stanleyc

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"H. Orientalis", did the taxonomy go through a recent change for this species?
 

corientalis

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Two of my females (I have a picture of one of them in an other topic about grey H. o. coloration) were also longer than 10 cm. They had wider necks and tails and must be quite old. As someone mentioned it earlier it can be related simply to collection areas and different populations.
 
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