Help! (Tylototriton verrucosus)

L

leonardo

Guest
Hi everybody!
I've just received 5 beautiful adult specimens of Tylototriton verrucosus...they are large, fat and seem very healthy but I have a problem: I had prepared an acquatic setup for them (as John's one) but they seem not to want to stay in the water and spend most of the time on the floating bark islands...what should I do to induce them to go in the water?
another question: how could I sex them?
bye
thanks a lot
Leo
 
Hi
Could you post a pic or somewhat?
What´s the temperature?(esp. in the water?is it moving?)
As you know, because you read anything you could get before buying,
isn´t T."verrucosus" always the same,didn´t you?;-)
If you´re animals are WC specimens of one of the lighter "forms",
it´s not uncommon that they prefer land.
Some of them actually seem to be much less aquatic than those of john.But remember:Even these animals sometimes stay on dryer areas!
Keeping them in an aquarium isn´t the only way possible!
Maybe this can help you!
Philipp
But where´s the problem?Low the water, put some more stones and bark in it and wait.
 
here some pics:

6391.jpg


6392.jpg


6393.jpg



anyway...now one male and one female often are in water swimming around...the others 3 stay on the island but they all eat voraciusly and are all healty!

what do you think about my verrucosus?I think they are quite larger than John's ones...
bye
Leo
 
hey!!!

You can't question the size of a mans' newt!!!!

Claire
lol.gif
 
Leo, how do you know they are T. verrucosus and not T. shanjing? They look like shanjing to me, although I am no expert on them. I think you need to provide them more land area. If they are shanjing or one of the less-aquatic verrucosus, I think you could kill them by forcing them to be aquatic.
 
I know they are verrucosus because who kept them before me, kept them in a totally acquatic setup...anyway I'll add a land area so they are more relaxed and there is no risk...
thanks a lot
bye
Leo
 
Jen,
Leonardo's animals belong to the verrucosus-complex. This dorsal color pattern is typical for recently imported animals (1 to 2 yrs ago). Mine look similar and I keep them in an aquatic setup with bark islands and lots of plants. One might consider also floating bark island "sandwiches" for the animals to hide.

Ralf
 
Hi Ralf!
happy to hear that my newts are surely verrucosus....pfiuf!
How are you keeping them?have you got any photo of your setup?
Have you ever bred them?How?
thanks a lot
and excuse me for so many questions and for my poor English!
bye
Leo
 
They're the "X" type I posted about on the forums a few years ago. They are as Ralf says "verrucosus complex". They are not however the same as mine - the tail, the head and the spotting are much closer to shanjing in Leonardo's. The animals I saw from this variant were indeed much bigger than my own - about 20+ cm long versus mine at about 15-16 cm.

Good luck with them - their care is similar (though I did notice that juvenile "X" that I raised seemed more terrestrial post metamorphosis).
 
Hi
Leonardo:please read mor ecarefully!
"verrucosus" is a mess as a taxon up to the moment!
So you can´t be "sure".Another fact is, that species can´t be described only because of morphological features!
Jennewt:T.shanjing isn´t that sure as a species,..
And "yellow warts" doesn´t mean automatically more "terrestrial" living,....
Got "verrucosus" here with quite yellowish warts,
which are much more aquatic than "shanjing" ,
even the breeder told me about them, only feeding tubifex out of slowly streaming water,...
They´re eating quite well anything i give them by tweezers.
Do keep Juveniles of that "form",
being very active and eating really a lot.
They´re often in the water, but really like to hang around on really dry places, without hiding.
Such places are ESSENTIAL for every Tylototriton i kept so far.
Please, offer them such hiding places, otherwise you´ll get problems with skin and even scales.
And(Even if i write it very often,...):
Keeping "dark" verrucosus only in the water, isn´t the only way possible!
It´s depending on how you raise them!!!
It works, i know, but keeping them more terrestrial´s working too!My females spend their first two years, staying on solid ground, while the males went into water pretty soon!
In case of the verrucosus "forms":
You have to watch them to get the best way of keeping them!
Grets,
Philipp
 
i know this is a bit off topic but thet plant pot in the the picture looks extremly sharp maybe you should change it so your newts dont cut them selves on it.
Regards
Mark
 
Leo, sorry, didn't mean to scare you. I've never seen such colorful verrucosus. I have one other small suggestion, that they might have an easier time eating smaller worms, or chopped worms. Good luck with them, they look great.

(Message edited by jennewt on October 07, 2003)
 
Hey Leo,
Philipp is right. Observe the animals and they will let you know by their behaviour if they need a different setup. I keep mine fully aquatic in a glass cube (60cm/60cm/60cm) with a sand covered bottom, lots of floating plants (mainly Egeria and Java moss) and cork bark islands.
6444.jpg

Filtering done with an internal device. They have bred for me, can't give you any hints on breeding though except to feed them frequently. Slightly raised temperatures during summer might also help.
6445.jpg

These animals make really great pets. Be careful handling them though, they weren't named crocodyle newts for no reason. The one in the following pics even tried to attack me while taking photos.
biggrin.gif

6446.jpg

6447.jpg

6448.jpg


Just kidding, they are very used to being handfed.
Ralf
 
thank you Ralf!
your Tylos are quite similar to mine, especially the one of the first pic...
hope to breed them soon...(I'll let the temperature drop during these months, then I'll raise it within about a couple of months...
now one pair (???) is fully acquatic, while one juvenile and two adults prefer to have "baths" sometimes...
they are all very tame and take food directly from hands...wonderful animals!

two more questions:
1)how can I sex them?
2)are your juveniles terrestrial or acquatic?
tahank you again
bye
Leo
 
Hi Ralf
Nice pics!But there´s always something to discuss,
when you´re called P.G.;-)
First:What´s the lowest temperature you offer?
Do you low them at nights, or are you one of those
people, thinking:"Oh, they´re doing well at high temperatures, Juveniles grow much to fast, but i don´t care and so i won´t try,
keeping them cooler e.g. in winter,......"?;-)
I think you understand what i´m talking about,don´t you?
Mine get 21°C the day and 17°C at nights at the moment,but i´m not afraid of cooling down to 12°C in winter, if it´s possible.My dark specimens still eat very well at 10°C in winter,....

Second question:Don´t you have any REAL dry terrestrial part in your terraria?I´ll show you some pics in Gersfeld, where you can see every of my Tylototriton, being really keen on such places!
Notice the fact that everybody will ever believe in totally aquatic ways of keeping , being the only working one!
And why?-Because they don´t get the possibility to show what they like to do too!
Like to get some answers,....;-)(Got my pics, already,....;-))
Greets,
Philipp
P.S.:Leo:My Juveiles are semi-aquatic,
while it´s very obvious, that especially "females"(i´m 80%sure to be able to sex them,..)
prefer staying on land, while "males" are,like every specimens;
mostly on land after having eaten a lot!Can mean having a "form", living near ponds in spring/summer and looking for food in the water.
That´s what i think also, when watching a "male",
not eating on land, and snapping like jaws seconds later in water,.......



(Message edited by grundtner on October 06, 2003)
 
Hi Philipp,
the lowest temperature I offer is about 16 to 17 deg. Celsius at night at the moment. During daytime temperatures rise a bit. I don't use a heater, haven't cooled down the animals during winter though, as I don't know exactly where my animals came from (latitude, elevation).
Before transferring them to the described aquatic setup the animals thrived well in a semi-aquatic setup with a terrestrial part.
The animals were transferred into the aquarium after all took to the water with rising temperatures in spring. If they show any signs of discomfort I will use a more terrestrial setup again.
I am sure that other setups will work as well and that the animals will display a wider range of behaviour given different types of setups. However, this holds true as well for a lot of other species e.g. of the genera Paramesotriton, Pleurodeles, Cynops, Taricha and large bodies Triturus which are often kept in aquaria. Species that have been reported to also live individually or temporarily terrestrial as adults in their natural habitats.

I don't know if this makes me one of "those people". With the current lack of knowledge in this species complex (as well as in others) it all boils down to a matter of common sense, personal experience, imagination and last but not least a thorough observation of your animals (my personal opinion).
I am looking forward to seeing your pics. As you know I am always interested in different setup solutions.

Leo, I think Philipp already answered your question about the juveniles. For sexing I could only give you the standard info since I am no expert on Tylototriton (e.g. given on Caudate Central). Maybe Philipp can jump in and give you a more detailed info based on his knowledge of the genus.

Ralf
 
Love that "croc attack" sequence of pics, Ralf
lol.gif
 
Sexing: (I'll talk about maintenance later on)

Easy to sex, even juveniles of about 10 cm - hold the newt gently by the tail (support its body with your hand though) and gently push the lips of the cloaca apart to reveal the length of the slit. Males have considerably longer slits, even as mid-sized juveniles.

Adults of the dark type are easy to sex without even looking past the head - females have much more rounded, bulkier/meaner looking heads. Males have more of an arrow shaped head when seen from above and their eyes are usually accentuated with light colouring around the outside. When in breeding condition males have a noticeably swollen cloaca and tend to have a deeper crested tail.

For the lighter varieties these things don't tally - the tails of the lighter varieties don't seem to vary much between the sexes (they never have deep crests from what I've seen), and the head shapes of both sexes are quite different to the dark type.

I should add that when I say dark type it must be remembered that I'm speaking about animals in breeding condition that have been aquatic for a minimum of a few weeks - the light variety/varieties never become near black like the dark type in breeding mode.

Maintenance:
Speaking for the Dark type here. For the first year of their maintenance I kept my adults in a tank with a considerable island. My observations are that when the temperature is above 18 degrees Celsius they enter the water and spend ~100% of the time there. They become more terrestrial as the temperature drops below 18. In winter I maintain the animals at 18 degrees for a few months in the same tank and then raise the temperature into the early 20s in spring. I don't modify the temperature again until the winter.

I am pleased to say that I have had no problems with my animals. I do believe that a cooler period than that which I describe is more natural but as to whether or not it's necessary, I can't say that it is.

As others have said, this is my experience. Most of you are probably aware of the breeding success that I've had with this species but if not, let me say that in the first 7 months of 2001 my animals were fed every 1-2 days and bred every 7-14 days without fail. That's two pairs of animals laying eggs every 2 weeks (and let me say that they were always above average clutch sizes to say the least). This involved no stimulation on my part - I just let them do it. I made an estimate for that 7 months that the larger of the two females laid a minimum of 3000 eggs in that time. The other laid perhaps only 600. I know that first number is staggering but the people to whom I sent eggs in the UK can testify that I had so many I didn't know what to do with them. That's not a boast, simply a way of saying that with the conditions I describe and a lack of intervention on my part these animals have always bred consistently and remained in excellent health for the past 3 years. Why 7 months? I separated the sexes after this time.

Your mileage may vary!
 
thanks to every body!
I've just changed their setup...now they can choose what they prefer, as there's a (little but good) terrestrial partm with moss, barks and stones, and a large acquatic part with Elodea, Anubias and Ceratophyllum...I'll post some pics when I've time!

as for temperatures, mine are at about 21/22°C during the day and 18°C dure night...is it ok?(I'm using no heater or cooler).
as for breeding I'm going to let the temperature raise within a month or so to about 24 (day) and 20 (night)°C...what do you think about this?

I'm feeding them every two days and they seem healty...(I feed them earthworms, waxworms, mealworms, bloodworms, and chopped snails)...

thank you again for your advices and "experiences-sharing"!
bye
Leo
 
Hi
... and thanks to everybody
Ralf:
Yes, i´m not a friend of keeping animals in other temperatures than nature(I know that nobody can say, where our "verrucosus" all actually came from,....
But if they eat at lower degrees,
keeping them at higher temperatures, shouldn´t be the way to do it, doesn´t it?
I think you won´t have any problem in winter when cooling down a little.


By the way:Does anybody of you know a Tylototriton species which HAS to be kept around e.g. 15°C in winter?
No, because there´s no existing so far in captivity!
In my opinion(without attacking anybody personally!), those aquatic setups for the dark verrucosus, are at least a way to make it more easy to spread the CBs and make it attractive for beginners.I just remember some buckets full of rather big subadults which were raised like pigs in quite a short time,....
Do you think that´s natural?Some people even used heatings to have temperatures round 23°C,
just to get the "honour" of having that big CBs.
Those people laughed about me,
keeping even Juveniles cool in winter,....
Those people never talked to e.g. Testudo-breeders,(Unfortunately, you have to know such examples,otherwise less people think about what you´re talking about,...)
having experiences with some species over long years.What happens to the adults, if you don´t keep them right the winters?,...
Personally, i don´t breed the dark form, because i´m responsible for my CBs,
and you can already find some in petshops,..
That´s why i have problems to be really happy about Johns success(Nothing personal or somewhat, john,i don´t know you as a person,it´s just my opinion).And ,of course, i´ll never agree to your temperatures and, especially, in the whole number of egg-laying actions,......
Leonardo:
Better!But you won´t raise the temperature within the NEXT month, do you?;-(
It´s going to be winter!I already sleep at 14 °C the nights because i don´t have a useable cellar!
(so don´t visit me the next months;-))
I sleep in one of my two rooms.But there are animals in both rooms, of course;-)
Sexing:
Johns method isn´t necessary at all!My males do have higher tails(more or less) the whole year,
but this wasn´t that easy to see before them becoming fertile!
You DON´T have to touch their cloaca or stuff,
though some "sadists" often tell such ways;-)
Males siply do have a small notch where the tail starts, while females do have a much smoother shape!You can even see this outside the breeding season!I wouldn´t talk about head shapes or such,
cause i do have a female, having a "male" head!(talking in Johns view)
Finally, i do want to say that i wouldn´t talk of me, being a "specialist",
i don´t keep any other other Newts than Tylototriton(though i have kept others, of course), because i do want to know as much as possible about them.Same with aspects in keeping and breeding!Maybe some of you will laugh about my "idealistic" way of treating my animals,
but guess that i won´t care!;-)
Why i wrote this?-Maybe i´m a bit direct sometimes,......!;-)
Greets,
Philipp
 
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