Help with my little T. shanjing morphs

R

rachel

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Hi all,

As many of you saw, my shanjing larvae morphed a few weeks ago at quite a small size (many of them are only an inch or so in length). I know that it can take then some time to eat, but it has been sometime now and I hadn't seen any signs of feeding. the last two days there were a few dark spots that could have been fecal matter and they seemed a lot more active yesterday (I wasn't at work today) but two morphs out of the 46 are now dead and I am concerned that this may be the start of a die off.

They did not touch the fruit flies that would just die after a few days, but I have been keeping up with the blackworms as I know that the morphs are familiar with these. I have them in 'clean setups' with tilted tubs with plastic plants in and out the water, styrofoam shelters and rings. Non-bleached paper towels line the dry side and are kept damp to allow the blackworms placed there to stay active and alive.

I know that earthworms were thought to be an option, but to tell the truth, I am not sure the larvae are large enough to even eat chopped worms.

Any advice? Your input would be invaluable. They are so beautiful and real fighters and I just hate the idea of losing them now.

Thank you.

Rachel
 
Yeah. This is always the stage when the real problems seems to begin. How big are they? They look pretty robust in the photos. You could try finding small earthworms or starved skinny worms to start. Keeping the blackworms coming is a good idea also.
 
Hi Rachel,

I am afraid that I am not optimistic; I bred and raised T. shanjing 3 times. Unfortunately, results were extremely poor when juveniles were small (< 4 cm). Be sure to keep them in small groups. This will limit mortality when 1 animal dies.
 
Though I've never raised shanjing, I have done quite well with other 'difficult' species, such as Paramesotriton fuzhongensis. You could try them in a naturalistic setup with leaflitter, soil and hides, and possibly plants. Make sure you have a good variety of dryer and damper areas. Add loads of small insects, worms etc and let the animals settle down and find their own food. Though this does limit the amount of observation you can have, it does reduce stress and all the animals I have tried this with have done well. I usually check the animals about once a month to count them and check health etc., as well as looking at night with a torch. You can also try putting blobs of blackworms/whiteworms in front of the newts when they come out after dark, or leaving food on shallow dishes in the tank after dark for the animals to eat from.

Good luck!

Chris
 
I agree with Chris on this one.
Although its easy for us to want to over simplify with clean set ups in captivity, we quickly forget the importance of security for some animals. Particularly in young ones.

The best thing you can do is give options.
Chances are, you will have a second chance at raising up some larva from this species, so don't worry too much, it would be a shame to see all of your effort so far just suddenly die off though.

Maybe for this go around, just give yourself as many options as you possibly can with a few animals to each set up and see what works best. You will have a much better chance at finding a successful method, and at least cut your losses -
Good luck!
Kyle
 
In your previous thread, you showed a photo of some of the morphs on wet paper towels.
http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/13/67522.html?1157074701
Is this still how they are kept (last photo)? The reason I ask is to suggest that they might need a drier environment. And more cover objects perhaps. I think the approach recommended by Chris has a lot of merit, if the zoo will allow it and you can get a variety of insects.

For food, you could try pinhead crickets. Very small phoenix worms are now commonly available by mail order.

Good luck!
 
Pinhead crickets have always work out great for me with Red eft's and Chinese fire belly morphs!
 
I'm raising some very small Echinotriton andersoni in about 4 inch tubs with screened lids. Each tub has cocofiber on the bottom. One spot has a little leaf litter. One spot has some sphagnum moss that I keep pretty moist. I have a very small cork bark curl in the set up. The newts are getting fed whiteworms, fruit flies, fruit fly larvae, springtails, isopods, and phoenix worms. The idea is to have a little ecoshpere with whiteworms, springtails, isopods, etc. living their all of the time and misting and supplementing as necessary. It's worked out well for me. I suppose I could feed them pinhead crickets too but rarely get them. I also threw a couple of earthworm eggs in.

For my tylotriton verrocusus they are just in a slanted barebottom tank. Their is some cork bark in their. I feed blackworms and small earthworms in water and on land. I throw the juveniles in the water sometime when feeding.
 
Never thought of fruit fly larvae, I like that idea as I can breed them in abundance.

I will also choose to give them a drier environment with more dark cover and damp moss. What if I soak some of the moss daily? Will they need any supplemental water?

I will be on in Sunday and will set them up. In the meantime I will ask if anyone can offer the fruit fly larvae also and reduce the water in the tanks.

And I have pinheads as long as no one thinks that they could cause damage to the little guys (I have seen adult crickets devour a pinky in a night and am sure that the smaller pinheads can still bite).

Michael. You mentioned placing the blackworms in the water as well and putting the larvae in there at times. Does this mean that they can still eat in water?
Also I have noticed some staring down at the little piles of blackworms on the paper towl. A guy at work said he has now put the blackworms in very shallow dishes also to centralise them, is this a good idea?

I really appreciate everything.

Any more advice and ideas are always welcome.

Take Care

Rachel

(Message edited by dragonwalker on September 15, 2006)
 
The species Michael did this with, is a much more willingly aquatic species which is commonly known to feed in the water even after morphing, which is T. verrucosus.

The shanjings would probably react poorly to this treatment though, and you're better off dish feeding in super shallow water... possibly in a yogurt lid? And not by setting the newts in the dish necessarily, although that may work, but just having the worms at one or two locations in the tank on dishes may be a good move.

I've fed pinhead crickets to small newts on many occasions and never had any problems with the crickets chewing them up.

It wouldn't hurt to have a damp side with a super shallow water dish that is changed daily, and a dry side. Giving them choices is the best option currently.

Good luck!
 
Kyle is right about the water. I wouldn't put them in much water. I think the more food options and environment options you can offer them the better. Deep water is kind of a no no for shanjing.
 
Okay,

So, I am getting the keeper on duty today to lower the water level dramatically and add damp moss. Also feed out fruit fly larvae and small pinheads. I am asking about starting a worm farm that we used to have set up and am looking into getting phoenix worms.

On Sunday I will be placing the morphs into smaller groups and giving them lots of cover and a darker environment. I will throw in a bunch of fflies adults and larvae, pinheads and low dishes of blackworms.

Hopefully this will be the turning point of having happier morphs.

I am feeling really dumb but as many have mentioned before, the first time is a learning experience and keeping them in a more clinical setting when they were larvae just evolved into the morph setting also (with a dry side and some artificial cover).

Thank you all for the advice and again, any more info is always welcome.

Again, thank you.

Rachel
 
Hello All,

So I set up four tanks with moss, wood, plastic leaves and a damp area in the back corner each which consists of folded paper towels with moss on which is misted.

I fed them blackworms in a small clear plastic baby food lid, fruit flies, tiny pinheads and fruit fly larvae.

As soon as I put the larvae in they were actively hunting, and the little maggots really spread themselves around the exhibit, on the moss etc. so they all have a chance to see them.

I did see some eat, at least bite at some of the ff larvae, so it seems that they are hungry. I still have 43 so I pray that they will figure it out and be a lot happier in their darker and more private environment.

Thank you all for your help!!
Hopefully I will have phoenix worms and red worms available by this time next week.

I will send pics as soon as I can.


Rachel
 
Wood lice babies work very well too, and they are easy to culture
 
I found lesser waxworms to be a good starter food for my Shanjinglings....
 
Right now I am working on getting the zoo to approve red worms and phoenix worms, but I will keep the lesser waxworms in mind. I also wonder whether anyone ever feeds out freshly hatched mealworms as they are very tiny, or can they cause the same kind of problems that adult mealworms can cause?

In the meantime I get the impression that the ff larvae are popular as there are always a few little heads popping out from the moss when I feed them out, however the newts hide until I tuck them in and turn the lights in the room off...
happy.gif
 
It sounds like all is well then?
From what I can gather, you have done an incredible job caring for the little guys, keep up the good work!
Kyle
 
Just an update. Although I barely see the little tykes (except when I check on them which I hate to do but it is mandatory that I count them every other day as per animal management), and have not seen them eat, all 43 are still alive, even the tiny ones, so I hope this means that they are finding the food okay. They can really move when they want to also.

Does anyone know how long they could go without food as young, to give me an indication of whether these are really good signs? I want to make sure that they are happy with the food that I am offering.

Thanks

Rachel
 
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