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High metamorphosis rate of A. andersoni

michael

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I have read a good many reports of them morphing here in the states too. In fact, quite a few breeders sell them "pick up only" or will only ship eggs for this reason.

Pm'd about contact info for purchasing Ambystoma andersoni eggs and metamorphosed Ambystoma andersoni.
Thanx
 

michael

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I've found no evidence of Ambystoma andersoni eggs ever being offered for sale in the U.S. I might have offered them for trade at one time. The only metamorphosed Ambystoma andersoni I've found evidence of being for sale in the U.S. is one I bought in a group purchase. I later advertised it for sale and sold it. I kept the sub adults that came with it.


I have found some indication that subadult to adult Ambystoma andersoni might have been confiscated in the raid on U.S. Global.
 

Jan

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I've found no evidence of Ambystoma andersoni eggs ever being offered for sale in the U.S. I might have offered them for trade at one time. The only metamorphosed Ambystoma andersoni I've found evidence of being for sale in the U.S. is one I bought in a group purchase. I later advertised it for sale and sold it. I kept the sub adults that came with it.


I have found some indication that subadult to adult Ambystoma andersoni might have been confiscated in the raid on U.S. Global.

Thanks for the follow-up Michael.
 

michael

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I've had a report of 1 of the Ambystoma andersoni my animals produced metamorphosing. I should be getting it back and will take some pictures.
 

slowfoot

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BTW Randall Voss and the AGSC received andersoni from my stock and from another german breeder in 2008.

When I worked for him (around 1998 or so) the animals we had in the lab were descended from wild caught individuals - caught with proper permits by people in the lab. They were relatively easy to breed, so I think it's probably unlikely that all andersoni in the US are descended from one pair.
 

michael

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When I worked for him (around 1998 or so) the animals we had in the lab were descended from wild caught individuals - caught with proper permits by people in the lab. They were relatively easy to breed, so I think it's probably unlikely that all andersoni in the US are descended from one pair.

The ones that Randall is working with now are recent imports and we figured they are probably from the same line mine are from. I'm not sure what happened with the old lines. I do know that Philly Zoo had some years ago. My guess is that most in the U.S. now are from imports or offspring of imports in the last few years. We do sometimes make the mistake that all imports or all breeding of something are from what we are aware of. The new stock that Philly has should go on display soon.

As part of his research Randall is doing some hormone induced crossbreeding with axolotls and A. andersoni. Please don't try this at home.
 

slowfoot

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I know those particular andersoni didn't go with him to Kentucky - they stayed with the lab and were probably just distributed/incorporated into other people's work.

And I guess I should've made it clear that in terms of metamorphosis rates, I was talking about the pure andersoni, not the crossed strains.
 

Coastal Groovin

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Why would anyone try to cross Axolotls and andersoni? This no doubt will just ruin their genetics!!!. Axolotls are already running around with A.t.mavortium genes in order to get albino Axolotls. Do we really need an albino andersoni/axolotl cross? And I like to state my animals that I recieved from Mr Shromm show no signs of metamorphosis.
 

slowfoot

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Why would anyone try to cross Axolotls and andersoni? This no doubt will just ruin their genetics!!!. Axolotls are already running around with A.t.mavortium genes in order to get albino Axolotls. Do we really need an albino andersoni/axolotl cross? And I like to state my animals that I recieved from Mr Shromm show no signs of metamorphosis.

It's done to conduct experiments looking into the genetic control of metamorphosis. These animals will probably never leave the lab.

eta: The standards for how and when lab strains are allowed to be 'marketed' are pretty strict. Something like an albino axolotl, which is potentially useful to other researchers working on genetics and development, will most likely be made available to those working in other labs - like different mouse strains are often marketed. However, the andersoni crosses are so specific, they're unlikely to be useful to anyone else, so will not be available. The guidelines for what happens to animals that are no longer needed for experiments are strict, especially animals that are not 'wild type' individuals. They aren't simply allowed to leave the lab.
 

michael

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Why would anyone try to cross Axolotls and andersoni? This no doubt will just ruin their genetics!!!. And I like to state my animals that I recieved from Mr Shromm show no signs of metamorphosis.

I think their are legitimate research reasons for doing the cross. At the last Hamburg show I picked up a paper about all kinds of crosses of Ambystomids. My take on the paper was they were figuring out how closely the animals were related genetically by how viable the cross was and wether they could reproduce. I'm not sure exactly what the purpose is for doing the Ambystoma mexicanum X Ambystoma andersoni cross but my guess is their is a good scientific reason.
 

Newtility

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Sorry to interrupt and change subjects, but Newtility...that commentary about receiving animals from Bilbao just felt wrong. By receiving a pure strain you mean you received locally collected T.marmoratus??? If so, you should know that what you did was ilegal and very much immoral.

I was waiting for this statement, really. Immoral! What a great word! Moral equals to ethics like civilization to culture. The stock is from that locality but not the actual specimen, of course. But all you moralists, which species do you keep yourself? Many if not most of the actually maintained species of caudates come from stock not collected under any law or license. Eradicate all your kaiseri immediately! And all pachytriton, Paramesotriton, even Cynops etc. as all these are from highly doubtful imports or sources. The newts from China are restricted - all of them! But the are available through the trade - illegally. And who buys them? many people around the world and I bet there is a huge number of these acid moralists amongst them.

Meanwhile many species are under severe threat of eradication but not a single one from collecting for trade or private purposes. All these "environmentalists" and "animal rights" people have been talking lies over the past decades, the proof is evident for all of them from Greenpeace to the WWF. They are fundraising organizations- nothing else. And what do they do with the billions they receive? First of all propagande to justify their existence. The rest is dispersed to alibi actions like "preserving the Sibirian Tiger" and the dumm Great Panda, a species bringing itself to the edge of extinction by overspecialization and low reproduction rate. But not a penny for any caudate. Why? Caudates don´t have a lobby, one can not show what a great person he/she is by saving "an ugly, slimy crawling creature". And you are talking about morals? Please, first clean your tanks from all animals even possibly from not legal origine. Then start thinking about sense and nonsense in species protection. And why not start with Ambystoma andersoni? They will get extinct very soon but we have them by the numbers in solid stock and won´t let them vanish at least from captive stock. But they have been collected and exported illegally. OK, they are still eaten by the local people but that is way better than to collect 8 specimen for establishing breeding stock, isn´t it? The Axolotl has just recently been declared extinct - despite there is a "breeding project" in Mexico. Obviously not very successful. There are many Ambystoma under extreme threat in Mexico but the government prefers to have them going extinct rather than granting breeders to stock them up. I had been invited to a recovery project for a fish species in Mexico but rejected as they only wanted to find it back with help from experienced hobbyists without letting us stock them. Mexico probably is the country with the most endemic species under threat, all of them "under protection" but zero efforts taken to do so. Every day endemic species fade away forever. One species even by a professor who collected the very last living specimen and preserved them in alcohol rather than breeding them. Die in dignity - don´t moralists like to put phrases like this? BTW there was the first evacuation of dartfrogs from Panama as that government has realized they will lose them anyway but it is better to preserve them in captivity. Breeders around the world, seriously working of course, do a highly valuable work to preserve threatened and endangered animals. A work zoos can´t do from their experience and assets. But, hurray, there are fat funds available now and hence zoos around the world start "being interested" in amphibians. Great, now they can make money from amphibians and not only from tigers, elephants etc. That´s the moral of them. And they generally refuse to hand out specimen to private persons (with very few exceptions) but they seek "cooperation" with experienced breeders to learn from them (e.g. Amphibian Ark). After they have soaked out the knowledge like a vampire they will turn their backs to us hobbyists again. What an ethical attitude! To all non-moralists in this world: Let´s do what we can to stock as many species as possible to safe as many as possible from going forever. That´s not moral but ethical.
 

beefsteak

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Hi, Ja, I got five. None of them have morphed! Ive had them for about a year and a half. I also hatched some eggs out about a month ago. So I guess I will have some of those available up here soon. Not getting enough food can trigger get some salamanders to morph early, Not enough food in the water its time to get out. Maybe. Or I would also say water quality?
 

michael

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Could this be due to inbreeding? I'm not much of a population geneticist but this could be an example of hybrid breakdown. Maybe there is a relationship between morphing individuals and lack of genetic variance.

Inbreeding problems take many generations to show up in amphibians if they show up at all. I doubt that enough generations of captive bred Ambystoma andersoni have been done for any inbreeding evidence to show up.

With hobbyists what is blamed on inbreeding many times is the result of husbandry problems or rumor.
 

michael

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I've had a report of 1 of the Ambystoma andersoni my animals produced metamorphosing. I should be getting it back and will take some pictures.

Here is the metamorphosed andersoni.
 

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axelotomudpupi

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Here are some photos during and after morphing. Two out of three I got in April 2010 morphed. I have the most recent about two weeks, and the breeder here in Canada has the first about two months ago.
 

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SwissAxie

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Hey,

I actually have 8 Andersoni.
My first 5 were f1.
One of those metamorphosed. I have one piccie left of him when he started : see attached picture.

I know someone else who had 5 f2, three of which metamorphosed. For those I am pretty sure they wanted to get out of the water because their maintenance wasn't quite "happy".

They were fed with red mosquito larvae (frozen) mostly.

I can't prove it but I think metamorphosis could also have something to do with change in environment at maybe the wrong moment : They all metamorphosed within weeks we had taken them home...

Barbara
 

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SwissAxie

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Daniel,

Your post is old, but I've seen you pestering against pellets elsewhere, too. I guess you should go buy some of those once (not just any, but those at Aquaterratec - Shop) and look at the composition and then look at the literature and read what ambystoma mexicanum / andersoni eats in the wild. And then think about your statement again.

Barbara
 

SkunksandSals

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I have 3. One is new. After 3 weeks of having her shes morphing. Shes from autumn schley of microquatics. I have Two that are bred by jason of texalots and theyre also from autumns stock imported from the uk by a mark p. I know of 4 of that clutch morphed. I dont feed pellets but autumn did send me pellets. My husbandry is solid. I keep them in reminerlized rodi with a gh of 11° a kh of 6-7° and 40% holtfreter's. My tds is 450. I didnt feed her worm bands. Just blackworms mainly. Repashy. Mysis. Euros with the ring removed. Daphnia. Soft shelled snails. Her temperature was 65°.
 

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    I think it is always best to get them out asap but probably two days or so.
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