Just bought a property with Dicamtodons and every other Western Washington herp on it.

[noneofmany]

Golly. I just bought an amazing new home with a stream on the property in Monroe WA yesterday and it's the highest quality herp habitat I've ever seen.

It has a creek on it that is perfectly pure due to the elevation above the house and the community is super environmental (no one can use pesticides in the neighborhood),

Moreover the stream exists in a old growth type forest with a mix mix of deciduous and fir trees that cover the ground with tones of loamy soil and dead branches that are covered in moss and ferns. The ground is always moist but it never gets soggy, even when the stream is flooding in heavy rain.

I actually spoke with women who lived it before and discovered that she does see neotenic giant salamanders in the stream now and then (even though she doesn't search for them).

The stream also has some of the most colorful sigil crayfish I've ever seen, I think they have really good diet thanks to all the leaves that fall in the water. I also saw some very nice brook trout in it when I visited!

On land the property has wood frogs, leopard frogs, tree frogs, toads, long toed salamanders, rough skinned newts, northwestern salamanders, alligator lizards, garder snakes and I'm pretty sure even rubber boas!

It's a jack pot!

The property owners in the area are all appear to be aware of how special the stream is and the various uncommon animals on it!

I'm going to try to get some good pictures of the animal life on the property next spring and summer to share with everybody here when it starts getting warm again.

So excited!

 

[juraj]

Congrats !

 

[Otterwoman]

We are all jealous!!! :happy:

 

[sde]

Sounds nice! I too am lucky enough to live in an area that has great habitat, just yesterday I found three adult Ambystoma gracile, one Ensatina eschscholtzii oregonesis, and a few Plethodon vehiculum. Plus I am in walking and biking distance of two streams that have Dicamptodon tenebrosus, lots of Taricha granulosa have been crossing in the last few weeks ( newly morphs and adults ). There are also some Ambystoma macrodactylum, Rana aurora, and Pseudacris regilla. Also within a little drive there are Ascaphus truei, and Anaxyrus boreas.
The forest sounds the same too, but the one here is not old growth.

Are those crayfish the native or nonnative ones? The presence of brook trout in the steam will keep the populations of D. tenebrosus a bit lower than if they weren't, so they may be trickier to find.
Wood frogs ( Rana sylvatica ) hardly exist ( or may not at all ) in Washington, and that is in the very north eastern corner, you are probably confusing them with Rana aurora ( Red legged frogs ) which look similar.
Leopard frogs ( Rana pipiens ) are rare in Washington, and I believe they are only left in a few locations east of the cascades. If you post pictures I can ID them. They could be confused with Lithobates catesbeianus ( Bullfrog ), which are non native and a really bad species to have around.
The tree frogs ( Pseudacris regilla ) have had their name changed from Pacific tree frog to Pacific chorus frog.
The toads will be Anaxyrus boreas ( Western toad ).
Rubber boas ( Charina bottae ) are supposed to exist throughout the state, but are rarely found. If you find one please share!

If you want to get some good pictures of the animals, now is the time! The crazy amount of rain we have had recently brings the herps from hiding, so you can maybe find some without much effort, or you can flip rocks and logs in the forest to find them. Just make sure you return the logs or rock to their original position then put the animals back. -Seth

 

[UglytheAxolotl]

Lucky!

 

[noneofmany]

Sounds nice! I too am lucky enough to live in an area that has great habitat, just yesterday I found three adult Ambystoma gracile, one Ensatina eschscholtzii oregonesis, and a few Plethodon vehiculum. Plus I am in walking and biking distance of two streams that have Dicamptodon tenebrosus, lots of Taricha granulosa have been crossing in the last few weeks ( newly morphs and adults ). There are also some Ambystoma macrodactylum, Rana aurora, and Pseudacris regilla. Also within a little drive there are Ascaphus truei, and Anaxyrus boreas.
The forest sounds the same too, but the one here is not old growth.

Are those crayfish the native or nonnative ones? The presence of brook trout in the steam will keep the populations of D. tenebrosus a bit lower than if they weren't, so they may be trickier to find.
Wood frogs ( Rana sylvatica ) hardly exist ( or may not at all ) in Washington, and that is in the very north eastern corner, you are probably confusing them with Rana aurora ( Red legged frogs ) which look similar.
Leopard frogs ( Rana pipiens ) are rare in Washington, and I believe they are only left in a few locations east of the cascades. If you post pictures I can ID them. They could be confused with Lithobates catesbeianus ( Bullfrog ), which are non native and a really bad species to have around.
The tree frogs ( Pseudacris regilla ) have had their name changed from Pacific tree frog to Pacific chorus frog.
The toads will be Anaxyrus boreas ( Western toad ).
Rubber boas ( Charina bottae ) are supposed to exist throughout the state, but are rarely found. If you find one please share!

If you want to get some good pictures of the animals, now is the time! The crazy amount of rain we have had recently brings the herps from hiding, so you can maybe find some without much effort, or you can flip rocks and logs in the forest to find them. Just make sure you return the logs or rock to their original position then put the animals back. -Seth

I've always been confused as to whether wood frogs occur in Washington state. I once found an area with various green leopard frogs, but among them were some very dark brown and red ones that were not red legged frogs. After looking it up I found conflicting views on the subject and left it that.

I have heard three native frog calls on the property and adjacent forrest, none of them were bull frog. It might be because of the elevation, plus a lack of permanent standing water.

The other animals I know about because the owner has seen them on the property.

Rubber boas have been found nearby and the semi open marginal environment next to the old growth is more or less ideal for them. So I can only guess they're present.

I can also confirm that the crayfish are natives, and very pretty ones at that. They must
benefit from all the maple leaves in the stream and caddis larva because their super red!

Also, I don't think the trout are a real problem for the dicamptodons as they are all very small.

The stream can get pretty shallow in the summer and while I haven't seen them yet there are several large water falls on the way down. I'm actually kind of surprised any fish got up there in first place. I like smaller more colorful trout anyway since it makes them easier to observe.

Lots of other wild life too. Bear, tons of Bobcats, barred and spotted owls, plus bald eagle and osprey.

Strangely, in 25 years she and her husband never saw a coyote, and she didn't mention raccoons either.

 

[noneofmany]

We are all jealous!!! :happy:

Well it's nice compensation for not being aloud to own hardly any other caudate since it's Washington state!

 

[auntiejude]

You are so lucky in the USA to have such a great variety of caudates running wild! In the UK we have something like 3 types of newts, a few frogs and toads, and thats it. We only have half a dozen native reptiles too.

TBH you're lucky over here to find anything other than a common frog unless you're in a nature preserve.

Enjoy your land and its inhabitants, please post pics for us poor Brits who have nothing interesting living in our back yards.

 

[adler0]

This sounds great. You're very lucky!

 

[sde]

I've always been confused as to whether wood frogs occur in Washington state. I once found an area with various green leopard frogs, but among them were some very dark brown and red ones that were not red legged frogs. After looking it up I found conflicting views on the subject and left it that.

I have heard three native frog calls on the property and adjacent forrest, none of them were bull frog. It might be because of the elevation, plus a lack of permanent standing water.

The other animals I know about because the owner has seen them on the property.

Rubber boas have been found nearby and the semi open marginal environment next to the old growth is more or less ideal for them. So I can only guess they're present.

I can also confirm that the crayfish are natives, and very pretty ones at that. They must
benefit from all the maple leaves in the stream and caddis larva because their super red!

Also, I don't think the trout are a real problem for the dicamptodons as they are all very small.

The stream can get pretty shallow in the summer and while I haven't seen them yet there are several large water falls on the way down. I'm actually kind of surprised any fish got up there in first place. I like smaller more colorful trout anyway since it makes them easier to observe.

Lots of other wild life too. Bear, tons of Bobcats, barred and spotted owls, plus bald eagle and osprey.

Strangely, in 25 years she and her husband never saw a coyote, and she didn't mention raccoons either.

Good to hear there aren't any bullfrogs, they are becoming a real problem in Washington. They eat native amphibians and out compete other species.
Good to know the crayfish are native as well.

Enjoy those bobcats! I love bobcats and look for their sign etc., I believe there are two within a mile here. They are truly awesome creatures.

How high in elevation are you?

 

[noneofmany]

Good to hear there aren't any bullfrogs, they are becoming a real problem in Washington. They eat native amphibians and out compete other species.
Good to know the crayfish are native as well.

Enjoy those bobcats! I love bobcats and look for their sign etc., I believe there are two within a mile here. They are truly awesome creatures.

How high in elevation are you?

Not sure about the elevation, but I don't think it's very high. Probably only several hundred feet. It's vegetation is somewhat more alpine like than you'd expect though. It reminds me of the lower slopes of Mt Rainer. The valley below has a very different character. Allot more grasses and non native stuff.

It's a very dense and continuous forrest save for the power line clearing. There's also a fairly steep incline going up the hills to get there.

I'd describe it as being like a short mini mountain bordered by valleys containing large rivers.
I'm guessing that the coyotes don't particularly like this area, preferring the marginal zones and thinner more broken up Forests down below.

Interestingly enough, the valleys also had native frogs in the large permanent ponds along the snoqualmie river. Maybe predators are getting better at targeting them over the smaller more cryptic natives. Whenever I see native and bull frogs overlap the bull frogs stand out like a sore thumb, but the natives are hard to spot. I think the otters and herons target them allot more than the indigenous herps.

Alternatively, the bullfrogs are getting poisoned by rough skinned newts, whereas the natives are less likely to try to shove one in it's mouth.

Either way, the bull frogs don't seem to be doing very well in many of tributaries and streams between Monroe and Duvall.

 

[matamander]

Noneofmany and Seth it sounds like you have great properties! Super jealous over here.

 

[mewsie]

us poor Brits who have nothing interesting living in our back yards.

Everything is interesting, it's just easy to forget so ^_^



Except Daddy Long-Legs. Stupid creatures.

 

[Azhael]

And the pictures? Where are the pictures? WHERE ARE THE PICTUREEEEES??

No, seriously, we'd love to see pictures

Except Daddy Long-Legs. Stupid creatures.

:O How dare you...they are super cool.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/Pseudo-araña_nocturna_(opilion).jpg
Behold, a living, breathing Zerg.

 

[noneofmany]

I'll try to get pics tomorrow if I can. Things are pretty dreary out there right now and the amphibian activity is way down from when I first visited.

I'll try to get some shots but the streams deep and kind of murky from all the heavy rain, so we probably see anything until things calm down.

I could also look in the green house for alligator lizards since it stays warmer in there but by now they are likely settling for hibernation.

 

[auntiejude]

Everything is interesting, it's just easy to forget so ^_^

Thank you for reminding me Mewsie

 

[Coastal Groovin]

Can you post a picture of the crayfish here please?

 

[sde]

It's a very dense and continuous forrest save for the power line clearing. There's also a fairly steep incline going up the hills to get there.

Speaking of hills, if you want to go herping North hills are supposed to be better than others, though I haven't actually had better success with them.

I'd describe it as being like a short mini mountain bordered by valleys containing large rivers.
I'm guessing that the coyotes don't particularly like this area, preferring the marginal zones and thinner more broken up Forests down below.

Coyotes probably like all types of forests, they are very opportunistic, maybe they are out competed by the bobcats?

Interestingly enough, the valleys also had native frogs in the large permanent ponds along the snoqualmie river. Maybe predators are getting better at targeting them over the smaller more cryptic natives. Whenever I see native and bull frogs overlap the bull frogs stand out like a sore thumb, but the natives are hard to spot. I think the otters and herons target them allot more than the indigenous herps.

Valleys are great spots for native frogs.
Hopefully you are right! Hopefully the bullfrogs will get eaten rather than the natives.

Alternatively, the bullfrogs are getting poisoned by rough skinned newts, whereas the natives are less likely to try to shove one in it's mouth.

I rather doubt that the bullfrogs are eating very many Taricha granulosa. The breeding season for Taricha granulosa occurs before the bullfrogs are active in the spring. And though they do migrate in the fall as well, they aren't going to the ponds ( as far as I know ) which is where almost all the bullfrogs will be. Though I am sure they do eat some larvae and juveniles, which can still kill them.

Either way, the bull frogs don't seem to be doing very well in many of tributaries and streams between Monroe and Duvall.

Good! They are doing great here, they have become so common that they are moving a ways from the ponds. A bad sign that they are looking for new places to inhabit, thus spreading. It is very unfortunate. They have nearly completely wiped out Rana pretiosa ( Oregon spotted frog ) in Washington. Too bad....

 

[noneofmany]

Well everyone, I have some good news and some bad news.

The bad news is I found a picture of a bull frog in our community. I don't know how indicative this is of their population, but I know the natives are still present in some numbers. They sing in the spring and summer and my neighbors don't seem to be describing bull frogs.

I know that on my grandma's farm bull frogs have been present for a long time, yet, their numbers always seem to be just hanging on, and the native leopard frogs, toads and red legged frogs persist. The salamanders are all still common as well. I hope this is a sign that their are some places in the PNW where bull frogs just don't do very well.

The good news is that I found, rather unexpectedly, a dicamptodon!

It was in pool in the stream near my bridge. A medium neotenic adult, about five inches long.

It wasn't really hiding. In fact it was about as out in the open as it could have got. I watched it for a while and used a glass bowl (that my mom had to hurriedly fetch from the house) to get good look at it. I'm fairly confident it was a coastal giant salamander but I can't rule out a copes.

I always thought copes occurred only on the peninsula but lately I've heard differently from herpetologists that claim theirs some sort of copei like breed in the west central cascades.

What!? I wish I could find the article discussing it again, since the creature did seem a little more elongated and gracile that I expected. Does anyone here have knowledge of this. I read it so long ago it seems like a dream.

Sorry I didn't get a picture but it was very unexpected sighting. It eventually dashed off towards a boulder and disappeared into a hole in the river bank. If I find him again I'll get a few pics to look at, along with crayfish.

 

[FrogEyes]

Dicamptodon copei is definitely not restricted to the peninsula. It occurs on both sides of the gorge, from the coast to at least one location on the east [drainage] side of the Oregon Cascades, and also occurs somewhat broadly on the west side of the Washington Cascades south of Mt Rainier.