Limestone

A

adam

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Hi, does any1 have any experience of using limestone in amphibian vivs? I have lived in a limestone area for a year and never dared use it but it looks so fantastic i thought i'd give it a go if it is safe
adamanuran
 
Limestone in water dissolves to some extent, causing the water to become harder and more alkaline. This can be a bad thing or a good thing, depending on what kind of animals you are keeping there and what your local water is like. If you want to use it in a terrestrial viv, then it's probably not going to be a problem unless you have animals that prefer generally acidic conditions.
 
I use limestone in my Mbuna cichlid tank because they like a hard water with a ph of at least 8.0.

For amphibians however, I would NOT recommend limestone as they usually prefer a Ph around 7.0 and softer water than limestone provides...

g.
 
Hi, i'm using a different computer but this is Adam Cadamarteri, i know about the chemical and mineral properties of the limestone and that it dissolves in water. However some species i believe inhabit limestone areas such as Triturus carnifex in some area and Salamandra in others, does any1 have any specific info regarding their tolerances of caco3 in captivity or the wild? Thankyou very much for your comments they are much appreciated. Also some of the Neurergus inhabit areas with high caco3 content what do you think would be the result of trying to replicate this environment in captivity? I believe herpetoculture is still a rapidly developing and very new "science"and i believe small experiments such as this could help increase the understanding of the animals biology and behaviour. Any thoughts on the matter would be great,
Cheers, adam xx
 
Interesting questions, Adam. I have a lot of thoughts on the matter, but unfortunately I don't know of any hard facts!

Here are some things I have heard anecdotally. Aquatic caecilians are supposed to absolutely require soft water. Neurergus, as you mention, come from calcium carbonate areas, and it is "recommended" to keep them with limestone. (I suspect nobody has actually tested their tolerance though).

Certainly there are people who keep and breed a wide range of sal/newt species, both in hard and soft water areas. This would suggest that many species have a fairly wide tolerance, but again, I have no hard data. Certainly I was successful with several species, both in soft-water Virginia, and with continued success in hard-water New Mexico, where I've lived for the past 2 years.

In my own experience, I can tell you the following. After moving to a hard/alkaline water area, all my Notophthalmus died within 9 months. I am suspecting that the water at least played some role. I had kept this species succesfully for many years prior to the move. I have been very successful with Neurergus here, perhaps because they thrive in hard water. I know a couple of people who tried to adapt their Neurergus to aquatic conditions, only to see them die, and I suspect that soft-medium water MAY be to blame, but there's no way of knowing for sure.

One of the frustrations with captive care is that nobody really does "experiments". Any true experiment usually requires multiple tanks, a long period of time, and a willingness to risk the lives of some of the animals. Not many people are willing to undertake any of this.
 
Thankyou very much for the thoughts, Do you think it is "un ethical" to do such experiments? and is it likely to be frowned upon by other herpetologists/culturists? I believe with such experiments, no matter how mundane, despite the fact some animals may be lost, many more animals could be spared from a life of innacurate husbandry, or having to "make do" when a few changes to minor factors could provide optimum conditions for these species. These experiments could help find out what these factors are.

Adam
 
I don't think it's unethical at all. There is always some risk that any results discussed on a forum will be condemned by someone, but I think more experiments on captive care conditions would save lives, if done in a reproducible manner. However, even the scientists among us (including me) don't do them, probably because of the time and tank space issues.
 
Thanks for your reply, i shall let you know how i get on. Also, a new forum has been setup dedicated to keeping herps in outdoor vivaria
email me for the address as i am having trouble putting the address on here
 
Regarding Salamandra, I have found that if certain sub-speices, i.e. S.s.longirostris, S.s.crespoi, S.s.gigiolii, and S.Algira, and others are not given regular "shots" of Calcium carbonate, i.e "Limestone flour" they succumb to metabolic bone disease, and do not survive to adulthood.
These animals naturally live in Karstic limestone habitats, and require this extra calcium to develop normally.
 
Useful info, Mike. How are these "shots" given? And do the newts have any symptoms before death?
 
Hi Jen,
The Limestone Flour I use is sold as a supplement for horses, bought in 3Kg tubs at very little cost.
I "dust" crickets before feeding to my salamanders, at approx 14 day intervals.
I have used various (expensive) calcium/vitimin supplements in the past, when keeping Chelonia, Phelsuma, and other sun-loving lizards, but find that the ground limestone is sufficient for the needs of my Salamandra.
I used to breed my own crickets, but now buy them in bulk in "micro" and "small" sizes and grow them on. I feed them on "trout pellets".
Thankfully I have not experienced any losses of my animals due to calcium deficiency, but apparently, if not supplemented they lose condition, (weight/muscle tone) and the ability to walk normally, dying soon after.
 
Hi, that was really helpful!!!
Presently i am kepping almanzoris and galaica outside in enclosures. they are inspected every day but appear to be thriving without additional food. In cases such as these where the animals can obtain all the food they need from wild slugs porcellio etc, does this make a serious impact on health? As you will probably know keeping small animals in enclosures over 40' square presents difficulties when trying to feed let alone supplement with minerals etc.
Cheers, adamanuran
 
Adam, I have kept Salamandra in small outdoor enclosures, and found that they survived very well on wild food but did appreciate a "bulk feed" of earthworms/crickets on a regular basis.
It is important especially for breeding females to have good fat reserves.
This was achieved by placing the animals in dark boxes together with the food supply, returning them to the enclosure after feeding.
I would recommend that you do supplement your S.s.almanzoris with limestone flour, and it certainly woudn't hurt the S.s.gallaica.
 
I have supplemented them once a week for the last year with an IZVG calcium formula and i think i shall continue to do the same now except now i'll have to find them to do it. Cheers, Adam
 
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