Question: Molchpest Bacterial Skin Disease HELP!

[Snewt]

Roughly 2 months ago I purchased 2 fire bellied newts, these were the larger 2 from the pet store (2 or so inches long). I had them in their own tank with a air bubbler, smooth gravel and fake plants. (At the time I did not realize I needed a filter - I had Fire Bellie's when I was little and they lived for years without one)
I was feeding them dried bloodworm's and both were eating fine. With my previous Fire Bellie's experience I knew they made awesome pets so I decided that I would make 2 extra aquariums up, one for a friends birthday and one for work. These tanks were roughly 2 gallons each - I was not worried about their size because the remaining newts at the pet store were barely over an inch and planned on upgrading the tanks when needed. The tanks came with their own small filters and lighting. I knew I wanted to get a full size filter for my two at home but was still doing some research into what kind would be the best. At the time I was already changing the water out weekly. When I went to the pet store they had 5 fire bellies left. I did not want one to be left on its own so bought that as well with the plan to add him to my existing tank ( after semi quarantine with the fellow new ones. ) The two tanks mentioned above were pre-set up before I brought the newts home.

I put two in one and 3 in the other. The pet store mentioned that they had been feeding theirs frozen blood worms instead of dried but since my original two had no problems taking to the dried variety, I was not worried and knew If they still did not eat by the 3rd day that I could go get the frozen kind. A couple days passed and no one was eating still, they also did not seem very lively. I also noticed that one of them had a gimpy leg, it was not raw or sore looking, he just was not using it. I remembered seeing this same one at the pet store and he had been doing the same thing then.

Gimpy was the first to die on me. all during this time I was doing research on eating behaviors and many sources said that it is not abnormal for newts to decide not to eat for a couple days if not longer, this lead me to think that maybe that one died because of already being weak. I did a thorough job cleaning the tank and took one from a different tank to make an even two, since the one that had been left was always curled up with the one that died. two more days went by and I noticed some of the food I had put in both the tanks were gone so I had hoped that they were eating during the night since these little guys were so much more timid than my original two. One more day passed and two more newts dropped off in the same day. This happened during the Easter long weekend and so I could not contact the pet store.

Concerned that maybe there was something toxic in the two small tanks ( They came from Wal-Mart so who knows ) I removed the remaining 2 newts and added them to the large tank. ( Yes, by now I realize this was a stupid idea ) one had a small cut on his leg which I could not fathom how he had gotten since there were no sharp objects and I had on purpose bought smooth round gravel. I looked into fungal infections and nothing at all similar came up. Several websites mentioned that its not uncommon for a newt to get a nick and heal itself quickly this lead me to wonder if he had tried getting into the small pump that had come with the small variety tank. Since all my research reflected that whatever the issue with his leg was did not look infectious and because the only info I had said to try to quarantine - I did not have any more pumps/tanks and still did not have an idea of what could be causing this so I did the very stupid thing of adding him and the one other to the large tank.

By now I was hand feeding the two ( this was still during the Easter long weekend ) One utterly disappeared. I turned the whole house upside down and never found him. The original two were not big enough to have eaten him. In one day the one that had the leg wound had gone from a small patch on his thigh to having his groin to under his knee raw to the bone. by the next morning he was dead. I thou rally cleaned and boiled everything in the large tank, replacing my original two back in. A couple days went by and I noticed a tiny patch of raw skin on the smaller ones tail - her name was Nori. Of course I flipped, unfortunately It was very late so I could not call the vet and opted to call the next morning. I immediately removed Nori from the tank and had her quarantined in a large glass vase, she was still eating and acting normal. By morning the area on her tail had doubled and when I phoned my regular vet she told me that she did not handle reptile/amphibians and to call a different one. I did this and was told that the lady who handles these things would not be able to make an appointment for another day. By that night Nori had a centimeter of flesh missing from her tail to the point where I could see the spine. Other than poor swimming she was still eating and I thought that maybe they could do amputation or extreme medication. Given that the infected area was closer to the bottom of her tail and going by the info that I had read about as long as it did not reach her cloaca that there should have been time. By the morning of the vet appointment she had already passed.

I followed through with the appointment because I wanted to know what was going on, where this had come from and if Baku - my one remaining fire belly was at risk. The vet said that to her it looked like a bacterial infection and that all she could do is either send a cultured sample off to the labs and do further research, the cost of this was over a hundred so sadly I had to decline. However she said that they did carry Baytril and since Baku weighs roughly the same as Nori she was able to weigh Nori so she could prepare a dose of Baytril in advance in case we needed it. She also said she wanted to do some more looking into this odd bacterial infection. She called me back as soon as I got home she said that the closest thing she had come across was a bacteria called "Molchpest" its a type of bacterial skin disease. Its supposedly a really rare bacteria that spreads like wild fire. During the conversation on the phone I was inspecting Baku only to find a speck of raw flesh on his tail the size of a needle head. I told her this immediately and she said that she had the dose ready but from her research found that even if caught extremely early, the rate of death is very high. ( Even with salt baths and medication )

At the time of the vet appointment I also brought in the package of Exo Terra Forest Moss that I had in all 3 tanks. I had never used the product before and I had started it when I first set up the small tanks, I did not know if perhaps I had gotten a bad batch or if the moisture in the tanks were to high and was causing a type of mould that I could not see. Although keep in mind all of this happened in less then two weeks and I was extremely thorough about the tank maintenance. Unfortunately I don't think there is a way of ever knowing if it was the moss unless we sent away a sample which as mentioned above was very costly. As of now we still do not know where the bacteria originated from.

Baku started his treatment of Baytril yesterday. It involves taking him out of the tank for about half an hour on a damp piece of paper towl and 'washing'0.13ml over the non infected skin parts. Apparently its supposed to work by absorbing the medication into the bloodstream and hopefully fight off the infection. The treatment is to be done once a day for two weeks.

Yesterday I also bought a filter to cut down on the bacteria that may or may not be in the water ( although it may be to late now. )

This weekend I plan on going to the pet shop to inquire if anyone else who bought a FB have had any problems. I have had not a lot of luck finding out any info on Molchpest. It seems that the people who have run into it say they have had it mainly affect their FB newts and that the source is unknown, although they suspect dirty water was involved. Once again I do not know how this could be the case in my situation because of how clean and cycled I kept the water. I will keep doing research but if anyone has any suggestions on any of what I have posted, please let me know.

 

[Jennewt]

I'm afraid you are learning the hard way about the problems of wild-caught firebellies from a pet shop. (1) They can escape like Houdini. (2) Flesh-eating diseases are common and tend to progress rapidly. Don't expect the pet shop to tell you anything useful.

A filter is not strictly necessary. To keep the level of bad bacteria to a minimum, you need to keep uneaten food cleaned out scrupulously, and pay attention to cultivating the good bacteria (i.e., cycling the tank).

Beyond that, continue the Baytril and hope for the best.

Molchpest is mentioned in the Wright&Whitaker Amphibian Medicine book. They acknowledge that is is not really a characterized disease - it's really just a set of symptoms. It's not even known with certainty that it's bacterial.

 

[Snewt]

Well that would probably explain why I have not had much luck searching "Molchpest."

I gave Baku his second treatment last night and noticed he was moving a bit sluggish but then latter the same night, I found a complete shedding. From what experience I have had its quite normal for reptiles and amphibians to get a little slow before/during a shed. I think at least that part of the problem is solved. I am curious to know if him shedding might help with the treatment in itself I only say this since it is a topical medication. I will be giving him his third dose of the Baytril today at lunch. I am so worried, I cant wait to get home and check on him!

Another concern of mine is, if he does seem to be "cured" in the two week medication period I am a little afraid of this bacteria/infection -whatever it is just coming right back. Some of the issues I have read so far about Fire Bellies is that their treatments don't seem to be very permanent. Sigh, well maybe I am jumping the gun with this worry. For now I will just have to worry day by day.

Once again, thank you to anyone who might be able to help with this topic. I really appreciate it.

 

[Snewt]

I just thought I would post an update to the situation. Sadly Baku passed away, roughly after a week and a couple days of using the Baytril.

The lesion on the fire bellied newts tail seemed to have had gone down slightly but his appetite had slightly decreased and he seemed a little lethargic. I thought maybe his lethargy was due to being the only newt left ( he was always found with Nori ).
A day or so before he passed, his throat was looking a bit puffed out. He did not look uncomfortable and I tried researching the topic but not a lot came up. I thought maybe because it was spring he was trying to look impressive...I personally have never heard of newts puffing but I know bearded dragons and other reptiles do.

The next day I got home from work to give Baku his medication it was then that I saw him thrashing in the bottom of his tank. It looked like he was violently shedding. I carefully took him out wen he stopped moving because I was worried that he had a shedding 'noose' around his neck. Further inspection proved that there was no shedding occurring but his throat was grossly bloated as well as his cloaca. He passed away only minutes latter.

At the end of the day I still do not know what caused the initial infection in any of my newts, how to cure it or if Baku died from it or from kidney failure from Baytril. I just thought I would update in case someone else experienced the same thing.

 

[Snewt]

I just wanted to point out that a while ago I spoke to both our pet stores. ( roughly a week before Baku's death) The following is what I learned.

The pet store that I purchased the fire belly newts from said that they had no problem with theirs and so thought it might be a water problem. I told Brian ( The man who runs the store ) that I was using the water he told me to - Distilled. Which he quickly corrected me that I should not be using distilled because it sucks the nutrients out of things and that there is nothing good in it. When he said to use water 'With nothing in it" he meant RO water. This might seem obvious to most of the people on this site but I have never owned fish or had been told about water treatments etc.

Brian thinks that it was the Distilled water that killed the first newts that dropped off. If this is the case why did my original two, who at the time were also in distilled water show no problems? My only guess is because I purchased them at a larger size than the others this meant they might have had a higher tolerance? I would definitely believe that using distilled killed off my first couple newts that showed no sign of infection or disease but I still don't know is why the infection would have occurred at all.

I spoke to the other pet store to see if they had any similar experiences, they said that they had! In fact they wont bring in any more FB's because all of theirs came in with issues or got lesions soon after which spread as fast as mine did. The man I spoke to there is pretty savvy in the reptile and amphibian department he said that he tried everything - including constant water checks and it all lead to the same outcome.

If anyone has anything to add to this topic please do. I unfortunately had to learn some things the hard way and I only wish that I knew all the answers to what happened so if I ever try FB's again I will know what to avoid.

 

[Kaysie]

Reverse Osmosis water is exactly the same as distilled. Both processes remove all ions and minerals from the water. You shouldn't be using either for salamanders (or any animals, people included).

Like Jenn said, newly imported firebelly newts are notoriously ill. This happens all the time on this forum. Bloat (the throat swelling you saw), lesions, starvation, etc. are all common in newly imported orientalis. It wasn't anything you did (although the distilled water didn't help anything). And if it's any consolation, there probably wasn't much you could do to help. They were already on a slippery downhill slope. You just slowed their inevitable downfall.

The best way to prevent this in the future is to purchase captive-bred animals from reputable breeders.

 

[Snewt]

Hmm, well I am now using tap water with conditioner in it for my Spanish ribbed newt. He is healthy and happy as can be.

I asked the pet store where they got their stock from and they said they were bread somewhere in the states from a large breeder that ships all over. ( Sorry I cannot remember where exactly they are based ) Brian also mentioned that the store had a remaining two from the same batch that I got all of mine from and that they were still doing fine...I plan on going back this sat to see if the ones he was talking about are still in the same situation. The store offered to give me a discount on the next batch of FB's they get in but I don't know if I want to end u going through the exact same situation all over again. ( Minus the distilled water ) If I was going to get another newt I would be leaning more towards a Totoltidus Shanjing newt, they seem a bit hardier and similar to my Spanish ribbed. Except for being more land based and needing crickets.

What do you think? Do you think it would be worth buying any more FB if they are going to come from the same source? As said above my original 2 were healthy until entering the 'infected' one.

Also thank you for responding I feel awefull about what happened and it helps to know that I did what I could.

 

[Kaysie]

I think you should do more research before purchasing any other species. I wouldn't call shanjing hardy by any means. I've found they can, in fact, be quite touchy, and they're rather hard to find, especially as captive bred specimens. And they don't need crickets.

If you can completely disinfect the tank, you can try again with healthier specimens, especially if they're willing to give you a discount.

 

[Snewt]

I would definitely be doing more research before I got another species.
I also want to get better at understanding the different water tests. Do you know any good reference sites for all of the different types of things I should be checking for on a weekly-bi-weekly basis?

Once again, thank you for your time.

 

[Jennewt]

There are no large breeders of C. orientalis in the US. They were wild caught, and probably went through several importers/distributors before they got from China to you. Pet shop newts are really hit-or-miss. It is possible to get healthy ones that live a long time, but diseases that manifest during the first couple of months are common. Even from the same shop, it really depends on what conditions and diseases they've been subjected to before you get them, and it's impossible to know.

T. shanjing are land-based, but they don't necessarily need crickets. Most of them can be trained to take chopped nightcrawlers handfed. They are all wild-caught animals too, just so you know, you could encounter some similar disease issues.

 

[Snewt]

Wow, good to know. Makes me wonder if the guy I bought them from even knows himself or if he just said that they came from a large breeder to cover his butt...

The other thing that now that I think of it, when I got my first two I was feeding them 'newt pellets' and they took to them well, then the pet store couldn't get more in and so said to try frozen and dried bloodworm. I went to dried, which they ate fine but my friend recently told me that most pet stores try to push frozen over dried because dried supposedly can carry diseases? Although that being said my Spanish ribbed is still eating the exact same dried worms and as stated above, is showing no ill signs. I don't doubt that the frozen would be better to some extent its just Desi is not very good at getting them if they get down in between the rocks, which makes for more tank debri. I still feed them to him but mainly the dried.

 

[Kaysie]

I don't think dried worms carry diseases, but they're not very nutritious. The drying process destroys most of the nutrition in them. You're much better going with live earthworms.