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P. honkongensis eggs
- Thread starter TJ
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TJ
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This is my first breeding success on the Paramesotriton front so I very much welcome any advice and suggestions, especially from anybody who has successfully bred them before.
Haven't read up on this yet and all I've heard so far is that Paramsotriton eggs are relatively sensitive to water quality and abrupt changes in water conditions compared with Cynops, for example.
It first struck me that these eggs were different from my Cynops ensicauda eggs in that they were larger, darker and laid in neat rows while the C,e eggs were laid more randomly.
But looking closely at this pic, it seems they couldn't have just been laid as the larvae inside seem to have developed somewhat. How many eggs would a female lay on average? I've counted about 20 here and wonder if more are on the way...
Haven't read up on this yet and all I've heard so far is that Paramsotriton eggs are relatively sensitive to water quality and abrupt changes in water conditions compared with Cynops, for example.
It first struck me that these eggs were different from my Cynops ensicauda eggs in that they were larger, darker and laid in neat rows while the C,e eggs were laid more randomly.
But looking closely at this pic, it seems they couldn't have just been laid as the larvae inside seem to have developed somewhat. How many eggs would a female lay on average? I've counted about 20 here and wonder if more are on the way...
L
leonardo
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Hi!
I've never bred Paramesotritons but I'd like to know something from you:
-how have you induced them to breed? (cooler temperatures,warmer temperatures or something else?)
-How can you distinguish different sexes?
thanks a lot
Leo
I've never bred Paramesotritons but I'd like to know something from you:
-how have you induced them to breed? (cooler temperatures,warmer temperatures or something else?)
-How can you distinguish different sexes?
thanks a lot
Leo
N
nate
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Hi Tim, I didn't breed them, but I've raised P. chinensis from eggs. I essentially treated them no differently than a Cynops with great success. I removed the eggs from the plant and kept them in small plastic containers, changing the water weekly. Once they hatched, I kept them just as any Cynops, which I know you have a lot of experience with
good luck with them and congrats!
good luck with them and congrats!
TJ
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Nate, thanks! But may I ask: why would you remove the eggs from the plant, and how? Does this enhance egg viability? Interesting...
I usually just remove the egg-laden plants from the tank (I spotted a C.e.p out on an egg-hunting foray just last night! pic later) and cut off the part with no eggs.
Leonardo, will get back to you later about my "sure-fire breeding technique"
But these are the ones that did all the real work:
I usually just remove the egg-laden plants from the tank (I spotted a C.e.p out on an egg-hunting foray just last night! pic later) and cut off the part with no eggs.
Leonardo, will get back to you later about my "sure-fire breeding technique"
But these are the ones that did all the real work:
L
leonardo
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they are very nice animals!
then, I'm still waiting to know what you did!
bye
Leo
then, I'm still waiting to know what you did!
bye
Leo
P
paris
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word of advice, ive bred p. chinensis and they have treated the eggs fine-just gobbled up the first batch of larva...but i did have a hk lay 1 egg-then stopped...dont know what i did wrong there, kept waiting for more that never came. but what i do know i did wrong was leave the egg in the tank with the parents like i did for the chinensis (id just take them to a new tank when they were near hatching). i watched that egg every day to see if it was viable and dividing, but about the 5th or so day i went to look in the tank and it was gone!-they ate it. it wasnt a bad egg so it wasnt a clean up from the mother-some one just ate it...so my 2 cents is 'dont keep the eggs with the parents'
p.s. that lay out is the same way that chinensis lay their eggs, and they too like elodea.
p.s. that lay out is the same way that chinensis lay their eggs, and they too like elodea.
TJ
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Leo, I can help you on that score -- as long as you promise to keep my breeding technique top secret
First thing you have to do -- and this is the most important point so listen carefully -- is to buy an obviously pregnant female that looks like she's about to burst. Then put her together with a couple males and take credit for the result!
Sorry to have kept you in suspense for nothing, but really, I didn't do anything special -- just kept all 3 together in cool, well-circulated water (a must for Paramesotriton) with lots of Ergeria densa (which I used to think was Elodea). I've since added strips of plastic roping favored by my Cynops, but she's yet to lay eggs on them.
As for telling them apart, well, the female was a sure giveaway as she was plump already. One of the other two had whitish sheen in its tail and so was evidently a male. I still haven't closely examined the cloaca of the 3rd one and remain unsure of its sex.
According to Jennewt's article at Caudate Central on sexing newts, outside of breeding season, the cloaca of the male and female P. hongkongensis are identical.
http://www.caudata.org/caudatecentral/articles/sexing.html
It also says, "Females may have somewhat shorter tails in proportion to their total length. During breeding season, males have a light stripe on the tail."
In fact, when the eggs were laid, the male with the sheen on its tail was absent and was recovering in another tank after having escaped for several hours and become badly desiccated. It has since recovered but not fully (another topic altogether...).
So I'm even not sure which one of the two in the pics is the female that laid the eggs, whether the other one pictured is male or female, and whether the male that temporarily escaped was actually responsible for fertilizing those eggs prior to busting out of jail.
Maybe others who have bred them can give us both some tips.
Paris, no worries there, I've already removed the plants with the eggs on them into a tank with cool, well-circulated water. TKS
First thing you have to do -- and this is the most important point so listen carefully
-- is to buy an obviously pregnant female that looks like she's about to burst. Then put her together with a couple males and take credit for the result!
Sorry to have kept you in suspense for nothing, but really, I didn't do anything special -- just kept all 3 together in cool, well-circulated water (a must for Paramesotriton) with lots of Ergeria densa (which I used to think was Elodea). I've since added strips of plastic roping favored by my Cynops, but she's yet to lay eggs on them.
As for telling them apart, well, the female was a sure giveaway as she was plump already. One of the other two had whitish sheen in its tail and so was evidently a male. I still haven't closely examined the cloaca of the 3rd one and remain unsure of its sex.
According to Jennewt's article at Caudate Central on sexing newts, outside of breeding season, the cloaca of the male and female P. hongkongensis are identical.
http://www.caudata.org/caudatecentral/articles/sexing.html
It also says, "Females may have somewhat shorter tails in proportion to their total length. During breeding season, males have a light stripe on the tail."
In fact, when the eggs were laid, the male with the sheen on its tail was absent and was recovering in another tank after having escaped for several hours and become badly desiccated. It has since recovered but not fully (another topic altogether...).
So I'm even not sure which one of the two in the pics is the female that laid the eggs, whether the other one pictured is male or female, and whether the male that temporarily escaped was actually responsible for fertilizing those eggs prior to busting out of jail.
Maybe others who have bred them can give us both some tips.
Paris, no worries there, I've already removed the plants with the eggs on them into a tank with cool, well-circulated water. TKS
N
nate
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Tim, I personally remove eggs from plants for ease of care/viewing. It's not necessary or anything, I just prefer it. I simply pull them off the leaf. Most people are pretty squeamish about this, but they're tougher than you think.
R
ralf
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Hi Tim,
what a nifty breeding scheme. I have to remember that one. Congratulations on the eggs. Raising of larvae should be possible without any problems. After metamorphosis things start to get a bit tricky. I already sent you all the information I got. Let us know how the eggs and larvae develop and try to get a nice shot of some larvae. Colouration is really interesting and unique in larvae of Paramesotriton. I also remove the eggs from the tank and reduce excessive plant material without any harm for the eggs. One question though. Did the female wrap the eggs into an Egeria branch which was exposed to current from the filter?
Ralf
what a nifty breeding scheme. I have to remember that one. Congratulations on the eggs. Raising of larvae should be possible without any problems. After metamorphosis things start to get a bit tricky. I already sent you all the information I got. Let us know how the eggs and larvae develop and try to get a nice shot of some larvae. Colouration is really interesting and unique in larvae of Paramesotriton. I also remove the eggs from the tank and reduce excessive plant material without any harm for the eggs. One question though. Did the female wrap the eggs into an Egeria branch which was exposed to current from the filter?
Ralf
TJ
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The eggs are developing fine and the female laid another string of them about five days after the first (or at least that's when I noticed them).
While I'm waiting for them to hatch, just thought I'd post a pic of a hongkongensis larvae I saw yesterday at the same store where I bought my three adults from -- in fact, it may be from the same female. Which leads me to think that perhaps I should have asserted my child custody rights
The fact this larvae is black reminded me of last December's Urodela Newsletter (5) in which Belgian Paramesotriton specialist Henri Janssens had pointed out that one way to tell the difference between P. chinensis and P. fuzhongensis is that the larvae of P. chinensis are entirely black, even the gills, while the larvae of P. fuzhongensis have red gills and white lateral dots. No mention of hongkongensis, but it would be nice to know how it and other Paramesotritons fit into the equation!
While I'm waiting for them to hatch, just thought I'd post a pic of a hongkongensis larvae I saw yesterday at the same store where I bought my three adults from -- in fact, it may be from the same female. Which leads me to think that perhaps I should have asserted my child custody rights
The fact this larvae is black reminded me of last December's Urodela Newsletter (5) in which Belgian Paramesotriton specialist Henri Janssens had pointed out that one way to tell the difference between P. chinensis and P. fuzhongensis is that the larvae of P. chinensis are entirely black, even the gills, while the larvae of P. fuzhongensis have red gills and white lateral dots. No mention of hongkongensis, but it would be nice to know how it and other Paramesotritons fit into the equation!
TJ
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Hi Ralf, sorry to have overlooked your post and thanks for the congrats! I'm depending on your post-morph info to raise them up to become fine, upstanding citizens!
Will later post a pic of that first batch of eggs to show how the larvae are forming inside.
As for your question as to whether the Egeria branch in question was exposed to current from the filter, hmmm....the branch in the case of the first batch was closer to the filter but not directly exposed (I think). The last time it was in a relatively calm part of the tank (I think). Next time I will definitely be more observant regarding this point (I think).
Will later post a pic of that first batch of eggs to show how the larvae are forming inside.
As for your question as to whether the Egeria branch in question was exposed to current from the filter, hmmm....the branch in the case of the first batch was closer to the filter but not directly exposed (I think). The last time it was in a relatively calm part of the tank (I think). Next time I will definitely be more observant regarding this point (I think).
R
ralf
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No problem Tim,
I was just wondering if there were any rules in egg deposition since most Paramesotriton species seem to dwell in low current velocity situations (pool- and near-bank situations) in high current velocity habitats (streams with conceivable slope and rapids- respectively riffle-situations).
Ralf
I was just wondering if there were any rules in egg deposition since most Paramesotriton species seem to dwell in low current velocity situations (pool- and near-bank situations) in high current velocity habitats (streams with conceivable slope and rapids- respectively riffle-situations).
Ralf
TJ
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Interesting info to store away in my head. Really wish I could actually go and observe them in the wild.
Actually, the tank involved now is too small to assess what conditions they really prefer. I plan on rectifying this sooner or later...
Here's a pic of the first batch of eggs as of right now:
Actually, the tank involved now is too small to assess what conditions they really prefer. I plan on rectifying this sooner or later...
Here's a pic of the first batch of eggs as of right now:
TJ
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My first-ever Paramesotriton larvae made its debut today!
The color seems quite different from that of the larvae at the shop that I posted before...
I wonder whether they're both hongkongensis -- and whether mine will get darker in the coming days...
The color seems quite different from that of the larvae at the shop that I posted before...
I wonder whether they're both hongkongensis -- and whether mine will get darker in the coming days...
R
ralf
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Hi Tim,
it'll probably darken within the next days, displaying the typical light snout and gill coloration.
Ralf
it'll probably darken within the next days, displaying the typical light snout and gill coloration.
Ralf
TJ
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Hi Ralf,
How right you were! These guys have really darkened out. Beautiful!
Strange that they would be so light upon hatching -- as seen in the one on the far left in this pic:
I've got about six hatchlings now and about 20 more on the way. One thing I've noticed about them so far is how much smarter and quicker they are than my C.ensicauda larvae or P.waltl larvae when it comes to being netted!
How right you were! These guys have really darkened out. Beautiful!
Strange that they would be so light upon hatching -- as seen in the one on the far left in this pic:
I've got about six hatchlings now and about 20 more on the way. One thing I've noticed about them so far is how much smarter and quicker they are than my C.ensicauda larvae or P.waltl larvae when it comes to being netted!
J
jennifer
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Those dark ones are the most unique-looking larvae I have ever seen. Really cool. Thanks for taking pictures for us, Tim!
TJ
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It's my pleasure
One thing I'm wondering though...if the larvae are light-colored upon hatching and then gradually darken, then why are all those still in the eggs dark in color...? Can't find any unhatched light-colored ones at all. Here are some examples as of today:
Actually, there seem to be more than 20 on the way. I'd say as many as 30 as I've just counted 15 eggs on this one strand of Egeria alone, packed in there pretty tightly!
One thing I'm wondering though...if the larvae are light-colored upon hatching and then gradually darken, then why are all those still in the eggs dark in color...? Can't find any unhatched light-colored ones at all. Here are some examples as of today:
Actually, there seem to be more than 20 on the way. I'd say as many as 30 as I've just counted 15 eggs on this one strand of Egeria alone, packed in there pretty tightly!