Pacman eating a bufos americanus

limnologist

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So Ive posted this on another forum, a LOT of people flipped and figured this is a terrible idea. Ive been doing some tests and research and found that the toxins that the toad possesses doesnt harm the pacman and that the pacman might actually be able to absorb the toxins for its own use.

Also, Off-topic, Ive heard that Bufo toxin might actually have the potential of becoming a cancer cure?

Comments?
 

sde

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What I want to know is why in the world you wouldn't just feed regular food rather than toxic toads!? Why not just feed worms or mice or whatever they eat, rather that potentially harmful toxic toads that are never going to be a prey item in the wild?

Though your studies suggest that the toxin doesn't harm them, I tend to doubt it. It's toxin, why wouldn't it harm them? Its for sure not going to be good for them. Also, why would a captive Pacman frog have use for toxins?

The thing is, why not just feed them regular food? The toxins aren't going to make anything better, and it is, in my opinion, probably going to have a negative effect on them, weather that is shortening of their lives, or whatever, I just don't get it. Why take the risk? What's the reason behind feeding them Bufo americanus? -Seth
 

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I agree with sde. Even a toad native to the Pacman's range would be bad enough. It's unnatural and hazardous. Please do not try it for the sake of both amphibians.
 

otolith

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Using wild caught toads is a pretty common practice within the snake keeping community (a practice I do not condone) but I agree with SDE and Alpestris. This seems pretty unnecessary. There are so many better, inexpensive and widely available food options that would not pose risks to either your pacman or result in the death of a native toad.
 

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From reading a few of the posts you've put on this site, it seems you are a person who likes to experiment. This is of course the only way we discover new things, but please try to remember that there is an ethical dimension to any scientific research, and you do need to consider this before you try to morph an axi or feed an animal poisonous frogs or whatever. You are not god. You do not have the right to do anything you find interesting to helpless animals.
 

limnologist

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What I want to know is why in the world you wouldn't just feed regular food rather than toxic toads!? Why not just feed worms or mice or whatever they eat, rather that potentially harmful toxic toads that are never going to be a prey item in the wild?

Though your studies suggest that the toxin doesn't harm them, I tend to doubt it. It's toxin, why wouldn't it harm them? Its for sure not going to be good for them. Also, why would a captive Pacman frog have use for toxins?

The thing is, why not just feed them regular food? The toxins aren't going to make anything better, and it is, in my opinion, probably going to have a negative effect on them, weather that is shortening of their lives, or whatever, I just don't get it. Why take the risk? What's the reason behind feeding them Bufo americanus? -Seth
That's all very true. But when you grew up like I did with eleven siblings in a small house and no money, you get creative, you learn more about the things you need and want. My animals are what I am, they are an extension of what I believe I was made to do, so, even though I had nothing, I found a way to keep these animals safe, fed, healthy. I found that a lot of what people believe about a pets needs is untrue.

The pacman has a toxic slime coating now, I used a cut in my skin to test so. Usually their slime does not hurt, but now, this particular frog's slime stings terribly and I believe it is because he eats toads.
 

limnologist

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Using wild caught toads is a pretty common practice within the snake keeping community (a practice I do not condone) but I agree with SDE and Alpestris. This seems pretty unnecessary. There are so many better, inexpensive and widely available food options that would not pose risks to either your pacman or result in the death of a native toad.
Nobody said it was wild caught.
 

limnologist

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From reading a few of the posts you've put on this site, it seems you are a person who likes to experiment. This is of course the only way we discover new things, but please try to remember that there is an ethical dimension to any scientific research, and you do need to consider this before you try to morph an axi or feed an animal poisonous frogs or whatever. You are not god. You do not have the right to do anything you find interesting to helpless animals.
I don't understand you people, you enjoy your pets and care for them a lot I believe, but to think you would get so defensive when someone is trying to prove something new and interesting about the hobby?

Of course I am not God, I hope you understand I do a large amount of research before testing my hypothesis. I have yet to harm any of my many pets and yet havedone amazing things with my pets.

Gods creations are amazing and were made to keep earth functioning and to teach us.
 

limnologist

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Using wild caught toads is a pretty common practice within the snake keeping community (a practice I do not condone) but I agree with SDE and Alpestris. This seems pretty unnecessary. There are so many better, inexpensive and widely available food options that would not pose risks to either your pacman or result in the death of a native toad.
I am really more interested in the fact that my pacman is more toxic now. Feeding my frog toads is hugely inconvenient.
 

sde

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That's all very true. But when you grew up like I did with eleven siblings in a small house and no money, you get creative, you learn more about the things you need and want. My animals are what I am, they are an extension of what I believe I was made to do, so, even though I had nothing, I found a way to keep these animals safe, fed, healthy. I found that a lot of what people believe about a pets needs is untrue.

The pacman has a toxic slime coating now, I used a cut in my skin to test so. Usually their slime does not hurt, but now, this particular frog's slime stings terribly and I believe it is because he eats toads.
But wouldn't it be easier to just go outside and dig up some worms ( or use worm grunting or other methods ) to feed them? Rather then getting toxic toads? It just doesn't really make sense why you would feed toads rather than worms. It is very interesting that it make the pacmans toxic, but I still don't understand why they would need to be.

Anyway, I just don't really think its fair to the frog. -Seth
 

limnologist

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But wouldn't it be easier to just go outside and dig up some worms ( or use worm grunting or other methods ) to feed them? Rather then getting toxic toads? It just doesn't really make sense why you would feed toads rather than worms. It is very interesting that it make the pacmans toxic, but I still don't understand why they would need to be.

Anyway, I just don't really think its fair to the frog. -Seth
I had an excessive amount of toads that I bred a and my frog won't eat worms either way.
Now we know it makes the pacman more toxic to other animals. The pacman can utilize. The toxins
 

Otterwoman

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On the other hand, some people think feeding worms is cruel. Isn't using worms to fish outlawed in some countries?
 

sde

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On the other hand, some people think feeding worms is cruel. Isn't using worms to fish outlawed in some countries?
I am not sure if you are being serious or not, I can never tell through the internet.

At least the worms don't feel pain. Plus are most likely more nutritious.
 

minxytota

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Never heard of the "worms as bait" being illegal. Though in Rome it's illegal to keep goldfish in bowls because "A fish kept in a bowl has a distorted view of reality...and suffers because of this. Also, this type of receptacle generally doesn't have a filter and doesn't allow for good oxygenation..."

While the later part of that statement is true the previous part is questionable.

Anyway, to the topic at hand, I use wild caught dragonfly larvae, earthworms and snails as food in my tanks. I've also used dying larvae to feed the parents (pinhead mutation, not fun) so who am I to judge.

I agree it's cool you've made your toad toxic. I don't know why you felt the need to, but who am I to judge? I like to use baby toys to make tank decorations. If it's not hurting (and without immediate resulting deaths who knows what hurts or doesn't except people with grants for long winded projects?) than why not do what's cool. Isn't that why half of us keep the animals we keep anyway?

My long winded two cents. [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
 

NewtB

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At least the worms don't feel pain. Plus are most likely more nutritious.
This is off-topic, but how do you know worms don't feel pain? In my experience, Worms start wiggling around like crazy when pierced with a hook. That, to me, indicates they are in pain. Not to mention we then proceed to drown them until they get eaten by a fish. All pretty inhumane. I'm not saying I don't enjoy fishing with worms. Don't get me wrong - cause I LOVE to fish. And I use worms whenever I can get them. Just think the statement was wrong (sorry).

So, more on-topic. Although many of us feel that feeding the packman poisonous toads is inhumane, is it really any more inhumane than feeding our featured pets anything under the "live food" category? Unfortunately this is nature. My salamanders don't go for the food pellets, so live food is necessary. Whether crickets, worms or said poisonous toad, we are still exchanging a life for food. Something is going to die in any case. I will say that I certainly wouldn't choose to do the experiment that limnologist has done, but it certainly hasn't seemed to hurt the pacman, and it sounds like he researched it well before he even tried it. So I don't really have a sound argument against what he's done other than I just don't like it. And that's not a fair argument.

Limnologist. You have obviously brought up a controversial topic (as you well know, since this is apparently the 2nd post you've done on it), so my question to you is this: what is the purpose of your posts? What are you trying to learn? It may seem to some that you are looking to create a heated discussion...
 

slowfoot

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I hate when people do dumb stuff and call it "science".

I do dumb stuff all the time, but I usually don't feel the need to post about it on the internet.
 

MEEX

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Now we know it makes the pacman more toxic to other animals. The pacman can utilize. The toxins
I don't think anything is going to eat the poisonous pacman, apart from maybe another (possibly poisonous) pacman, so really don't see the point?
What use are these toxins, to the frog, unless the frog knows it is toxic?
Have you noticed any change in his demeanour?
Has the frog promised to only use his new-found toxicity for good, rather than evil?

For some reason I envision this passing up the food chain until you have poisonous horses, and it's a horse that finally did the fly-eating Old Woman in.
Please be careful, and let us know how you're getting on.
 

sde

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This is off-topic, but how do you know worms don't feel pain? In my experience, Worms start wiggling around like crazy when pierced with a hook. That, to me, indicates they are in pain. Not to mention we then proceed to drown them until they get eaten by a fish. All pretty inhumane. I'm not saying I don't enjoy fishing with worms. Don't get me wrong - cause I LOVE to fish. And I use worms whenever I can get them. Just think the statement was wrong (sorry).
It has been proven that worms do not feel pain. Worms and crayfish feel no pain - experts - IOL SciTech | IOL.co.za
The wiggling is a reaction, much like when a lizard loses its tale.

So, more on-topic. Although many of us feel that feeding the packman poisonous toads is inhumane, is it really any more inhumane than feeding our featured pets anything under the "live food" category? Unfortunately this is nature. My salamanders don't go for the food pellets, so live food is necessary. Whether crickets, worms or said poisonous toad, we are still exchanging a life for food. Something is going to die in any case. I will say that I certainly wouldn't choose to do the experiment that limnologist has done, but it certainly hasn't seemed to hurt the pacman, and it sounds like he researched it well before he even tried it. So I don't really have a sound argument against what he's done other than I just don't like it. And that's not a fair argument.
I am not saying that it is not fair to the Bufo americanus, i am saying that i dont think it is fair to the pacman.
It is eating a toxic toad. What would prevent that toxin from being harmful to the pacman? Maybe it can use the toxin. Great. But why would a captive animals need use for toxin? Also, i bet it will shorten its life or something. If you ate something, like...say...sugar (;)) wouldnt that shorten your life if you had enough of it?

I just dont see any benefit from it at all. I do, however, see plenty of risk, and thats why i dont like it. -Seth
 

NewtB

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It has been proven that worms do not feel pain. Worms and crayfish feel no pain - experts - IOL SciTech | IOL.co.za
The wiggling is a reaction, much like when a lizard loses its tale.
Ok then! Point taken. I learned something new today! And I retract my statement. Although I will say in passing that scientists also used to believe that newborn babies nervousness systems were not yet developed enough to feel pain... They now KNOW this to be completely untrue. That being said, their study on the worms and lobsters is very convincing. Then again, I'm sure the newborn study was too. :rolleyes:

By the way, Seth, I DO agree with you. But I kind of get the idea that limnologist is just looking for a heated discussion. Unfortunately, I don't think anything you say will change what he is doing. For what it's worth.
 
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