Paramesotriton chinensis/hongkonensis

[jchor]

Hello Experts,

i am from singapore the hot tropical country in SE asia.
i recently came across some Paramesotriton chinensis or hongkonensis, some Pachytriton labiatus and Ambystoma mexicanum ....

i was wondering if i can keep a single Paramesotriton chinensis in a 67gallon 4FT
tank along with other newts like Tylototriton verrucosus, Pachytriton labiatus and Ambystoma mexicanum? so a total of 4 different newts in a 67gallon ?

the setup will be a bare tank with no sand to prevent ingestion.
3/4 filled with water
3-4 pieces of big diftwood at each corner for basking, resting etc...
some big leafty plastic plants at the center for hiding etc...
2 air powered sponge filter at each corner.
An egg crate screen lid to prevent escape
food will be frozen bloodworms, earthworms and pallets mainly...

just wondering if the 4 newts above can go along well in such a big tank?
and what temperature is acceptable to them?

Thanks

 

[Azhael]

That´s a very bad idea...
Mixing species is never advisable in general (check this link:Caudata Culture Articles - Species Mixing Disasters) but the species you mentioned, specifically, make it even less of a good idea.
Aside from issues like patogen or parasite exchange, these species require different conditions and could cause very serious harm to each other or even death.
T.verrucosus tends to go terrestrial at temps lower than 18ºC, while Pachytriton (i expect your animals are either P.granulosus or P.inexpectatus, since P.labiatus is no longer valid) requires as low temps as possible, preferably 18ºC or less (as low as 4ºC works great for them). A.mexicanum and P.honkonghensis would do best at 18-20ºC, with a winter cooling period.
A.mexicanum gets MUCH larger than any of the other species, and can even try to eat the other species. Both Pachytriton and Paramesotriton are territorial and can be highly aggressive towards other individuals to the point of injuring or killing them.
This is overall a very, very bad idea...
I strongly recommend to use the tank for a single species, provided that you can offer the adequate conditions for it to thrive.

 

[Davo]

It sounds like a recipe for a diaster to me.
I would concentrate on one group of them and set up the aquarium to their needs. :happy:

 

[jchor]

hello folks thanks for great advice!
sounds naive of me to mix species...

can i check which species can tolerate higher temperature?
i live in tropical is there any newts or salamander that lives in tropical conditions?

thanks

 

[TylototritonGuy]

As above, I think this is a very bad idea. Mixing any species is very risky due to many reason, here is a thread about the reasons of why not to mix I suggest you take a quick look at it

For New Comers to Amphibians - Don't Mix Species Topic

In all honesty, I dont see why you would have to keep them together, having a Separate tank for each isnt exactly a big deal unless you have limited space available.

 

[Azhael]

Some caudate species tolerate moderately high temps, but i ignore what the vaerage throughout the year is in your area, or the kinds of temps that your house experiences.
The most heat tolerant species of newt are Pleurodeles waltl, Cynops pyrrhogaster and C.ensicauda, and possibly T.verrucosus, Hypselotriton cyanurus and Neurergus kaiseri.
These species should be able to tolerate temps up to 28-30ºC as long as the temps are not constant, but it´s still quite a gamble...at those temps problems can arise quickly and even spontaneous death can occur.
You might want to look into buying a chiller. They are somewhat expensive but they work nicely.
Except the T.verrucosus, all the species you mentioned are not suitable for a tropical climate.

 

[jchor]

hello sir

thanks for great advice

i think C.ensicauda, Hypselotriton cyanurus, T.verrucosus and Neurergus kaiseri. are good for higher temps not more than 24 C. it may be possible for me to get Hypselotriton cyanurus and T.verrucosus

any Paramesotriton can handle higher temps? i like Paramesotriton newts.

thanks

 

[FrogEyes]

Pleurodeles and C.ensicauda are your best bets. Of all the Tylototriton, T.verrucosus are probably the most COLD tolerant, so I'm not sure how much heat they can take. Much data for T.verrucosus is actually based on other species. T.shanjing and T.notialis only come as far south in Thailand and Laos as they can manage by staying high up the mountains in the forest - they don't come near sea level or anywhere else constantly hot. Heat tolerance of Paramesotriton will vary. The least heat tolerant are probably the most common in the pet trade. Hypselotriton prefer it cooler, but can tolerate warmer conditions. What I've read of Neurergus is that heat is fine while they're on land, but in water it's lethal. That fits with their habitats, which are baking hot on land, but icy mountain streams to breed. I don't know the tolerances of axolotls - they're a tropical species, but Australians commonly buy chillers to maintain theirs. My most heat sensitive species go into the refrigerator. Bar fridges are cheap, moreso when you have one given as a gift and two won as prizes!

 

[Azhael]

I may well have remembered data for T.verrucosus that wasn´t even verrucosus, thanks for the correction.
As for N.kaiseri, it has been known to tolerate the higher spectrum of temps in water, something that the other Neurergus species seem unable to do. I only mentioned kaiseri for that reason.

Edit: For the sake of clarity, the tolerance to high temps should not be considered universal for any species, not even P.waltl. Its highly dependent on the health of the animal, previous conditions and for the most part it only works for relatively short periods of times interspersed with lower temps.
I just didn´t want to give the impression that because some species can tolerate high temps, this is acceptable as a norm.

 

[jchor]

hello sir

yeah u are right even though some species can tolerate higher temp but i still need a chiller. because i do understand that even the heat tolerant species normal temp range is 20-24c highest! the water temp here in singapore is 27-29c!!!. therefore i definitively need a chiller to cool off to atleast 24c... and bearing in mind chiller are very expensive to buy and to powerup a 67 gallon 4 footer.

i will definitely like T.verrucosus, C.ensicauda or Hypselotriton cyanurus,how about Paramesotriton from vietnam or laos? are they more heat tolerant?

 

[jchor]

hello experts,

if i am going to keep 3 spieces of newts in 3 different tanks, how do 1 chiller cool them all?
can the water from tank 1 power by a canister filter flow to tank 2 and 3 by gravity then back to the chiller to cool off?

or do i need 3 chillers? lolz
thanks



Edit: just to share

i found some ingenious ways to cool a tank cheaply.
ShrimpNow !!! - Keeping CRS in warmer temperatures

 

[Yahilles]

I think it's okay to make the same cooled water flow through all three tanks, though it's up to you to figure out how to set the water pipes.

 

[Azhael]

It involves the risk of crosscontamination with patogens/parasites. If all the animas have been properly quarantined or checked by a vet, i wouldn´t say it´s a major concern, but otherwise you´d be taking a risk.
Also, given that they can detect the pressence of other individuals from their species or different ones by smelling chemicals in the water, this could potentially cause stress, particularly for Pachytriton and Paramesotriton which can be highly territorial.

 

[jchor]

yeah that's an expert advice:grin:

and i do understand it.
looks like i have to do much more research before i get any of them...or killing them...

currently doing research for best way to cool off 3 tanks without bursting my wallet..:grin:

thanks experts!

ok back to my question.

which Paramesotriton can handle higher temps of 24-25C?

 

[FrogEyes]

Most Paramesotriton, Pachytriton, and Laotriton live in mountain streams and seepages. Pachytriton normally live at higher altitude and further upstream, where water is coldest. It is unlikely that ANY of these species encounter water temperatures so high, even briefly. If they do, they likely move farther upstream, deeper into shade, or into the forest moss and leaf litter where it's cooler. Even Laotriton, being the southernmost member of this group, experiences temperatures comparable to those of temperate zone stream salamanders like Dicamptodon and Desmognathus. AT the warmest times in the warmest streams, temperatures are in the low 20's. The coldest times haven't been recorded, but are likely 5-8C, based on known air temperatures at lower altitudes and measured stream temperatures a couple of months earlier.

I've seen very heat-sensitive species tolerate a gradual increase to such high temperatures, but it is eventually fatal.

It might be simpler to build an aquarium to fit inside an inexpensive glass-door fridge. Normally, the fridges are taller than wide, but that could mean making two shallower aquaria.

If you use a flow-through system, the water could be filtered or UV-sterilized between tanks. That would make for better quality water for these stream species, which often have Pachytriton living upstream of Paramesotriton anyway.

 

[jchor]

Hello Experts,

Can you recommend me some "hardy" newts which will be suitable for beginners like me?

i am looking at T.verrucosus, A.mexicanum and a Paramesotriton species. but i am not sure if they are best for beginners?

i will be building a custom newt housing out of 15 gallon Styrofoam ice box.
each 15 gallon newt housing will house a single newt as i read that newts are aggressive to each other and 15 gallon maybe too small for more than 1 newt.
this will be cooled by a TEM chiller mount externally at the back Styrofoam ice box, hopefully which can maintain a constant temp between 20-24c.
a sponge filter powered by air pump, will provide filtration and aeration to the newt.

i will be building a prototype newt housing and ensure the temp is acceptable before i purchase any newts.

please advice. thanks