Siren colony?

[cheddarsox]

I recently purchased three small lacertina. I have them inside right now for observation, but my hope is that by the end of the summer I can move them outside into a 300 gallon above ground pond. I am just getting this pond set up now, and want to get the plant life, mosquito fish, established and make sure the sirens are eating and growing well before I introduce them.

I will keep the water level at least 10 inches below the rim, and am planning an overhang to keep them in once they get larger.

I've kept lacertina before, but always in a tank. I had a solo female who regularly laid eggs, so I expect that upon maturity these might breed. I've not had the pleasure of raising hatchling sirens before so I am looking forward to that possibility.

anyway, just thought I'd post this and see what other siren lovers think, or if anyone's done this themselves. I live in South Carolina, so the weather should be no problem.

 

[John]

I can't offer you any advice because I've no experience with these but I think your thread deserves a bump (hey Peter help this guy out please ).

 

[onetwentysix]

I've actually been planning pretty much the same thing, though in a swimming pool. I just need to wait until I can find the animals. I'm also a SC resident, so weather's definately not a problem, though you might want to provide some shade to help keep temperatures from getting too high.

Personally, I'd go with a mud bottom if you can (though mud may dirty the water significantly, resulting in poor visibility), around 2-4 inches deep, more if you can spare the space. Leaf litter might be a decent choice above this; I know Siren intermedia can be found in leaf litter frequently.

If you can get it and keep it alive (and if it's legal; I haven't checked regulations in SC), get water hyacinth, they like to hide in the roots, and the cover should help protect them from birds and other animals. The leaves might also help keep the pond cooler, though I don't really think that's an issue with these animals. Water lettuce might be an alternative, but I don't think they'll really use their roots all that much. If you can do something to prevent animals from coming in and potentially predating on them, that might be smart too; while the odds of a raccoon or wading bird coming to your pond are small, it's still possible.

I would strongly recommend burying PVC pipes in the mud so that the animals can use them as tunnels and hides. Include things like rocks or flower pots as other cover objects that they might lay eggs under too. But basically, do whatever you can to avoid territorial disputes; I've had large S. i. nettingi kill each other, and lacertina get much larger.

But ultimately, try what you think will work best. If you go by my suggestions, your visibility of the animals might be low, so keep that in mind for your planning. Petranka states that adults measure around 50 cm, so depending on how big yours are, reproduction may be a year or more off.

In any event and good luck; not many people ever keep sirens, and I think there's a lot of potential in breeding them in ponds like this. Give them time and hope you have a pair, and I think you'll see breeding eventually!

 

[froggy]

Is there any way that you could build a viewing window into the side of the pond using silicon and glass, or whatever would work best? You could keep it covered to avoid excessive algal growth and disturbing the animals, but peer in occassionally to see what's going on in the enclosure.

Just a thought. Good luck!

Chris

 

[John]

Chris: Someone did that a few years ago and it's detailed or linked on the forum somewhere. I believe they were in the UK too.

 

[froggy]

John: ah yes, i think I remember it.

 

[fishkeeper]

I'd definetly reccomend methods of predator exclusion. Even small ponds are tempting targets to birds that pass overhead...and no pond is hidden from raccoons if they occur round you! I found having ropes crossing above the pond at various intervals deterred at least the larger herons.

 

[bsears]

If you're hoping to raise larvae, I would recommend removing the vegetation and hatching the eggs in a separate enclosure. S. lacertina is a voracious predator, and while the females will guard their clutch, they will also eat the young-of-the-year indiscriminately once they hatch!

 

[eyrops]

I also have been keeping Siren lacertina and am considering an outside pool because of their size, and because seasonal temperature and daylight changes might cue spawning. As has been reported here for Siren intermedia, they are capable of injuring each other. I lost one that had its tail bitten off by a larger animal. Since this happened, I have kept them singly, but I think a roomy outdoor pond with ample hiding places might work for a group of similar size sirens. I was interested in the suggestion for a mud bottom. These animals are burrowers, so the suggestion makes sense if it can be done without creating a hypereutrophic green mess. I have been keeping mine in aquaria, mostly with a fine quartz sand substrate and a few cobbles. I’ve used sponge filters, sometimes supplemented with and external filter. They use the stones for leverage to enter the sand substrate. They spend some time with just their heads sticking out of the sand something like Jacques Cousteau’s garden eels. I would be inclined to try to implement this on a larger scale in an outdoor pond. One possibility would be to have water coming from a pump, up through the sand, like a little spring. Conceivably, this might allow them to swim into the sand without even a stone for leverage. I think I would have an easier time managing a sand bottom pond than a mud bottom one. In eastern Pennsylvania I would need some heat in the winter to keep the pond from freezing. People due this for Koi, but I really don’t know if it would work for S. lacertina, Likely they would need a little more heat than that. They do occur as far north as northern Virginia. So for now I’m just speculating. I did like the idea of a pond window that was mentioned here. I would need an in-the-ground pond, so I might be more inclined to do a “pond periscope” out of large diameter PVC. Good luck with your endeavor, and let us know how it turns out!
-Steve Morse

 

[opistoglyph]

If anyone is considering doing this with any of the large aquatic salamanders, not just Sirens, a couple of suggestions.

Mud would be difficult to control as a substrate and yes, might cloud the water. Sand would do okay, but depending on the type, might affect your water hardness and pH and render the specimens unable to successfully reproduce, or even affect their health adversely.

If you soak peat moss in hot water and mix it with your sand substrate about 30/70 or even 50/50, it will make a suitable burrowing medium, buffer the water, and if stirred occasionally will not go anaerobic on you. An alternative is to fill a large sand-style pool filter basket one third to one half with peat- it will have to be changed monthly, but soak it good BEFORE you put it in the filter! Since I'm lazy and opening the pool filter is time consuming, I refer the mix it in the substrate method.

Also- soak dead beech, oak, or catalpa leaves in a layer over the substrate is an excellant cover and a great buffer. Though a large pool is some people's goal, a 6 or 8 foot diameter quikset pool is ideal, and hard for them to escape from. You can use topflight netting for gamebirds or fruit tree netting as a cover to deter predators and prevent escape. Oh, a 50% or greater cover of floating plants is ideal- mixed azolla, duckweed (another good water purifier) and water hyacinth (ditto) will keep the temp down and discourage (good luck!) algae growth.

Since this person lives in the south, the best algae cure is glass shrimp which is netted from freshwater only sources. Get A LOT. They will provide food for your caudates and eat the algae, and if you get them from a true freshwater source, will reproduce in your pond. Needless to say, your filter intakes and outlets have to be sponge covered and cleaned daily. Pickeral weed and water lilies are good to plant in this set up, cypress and other well soaked bogwood lends a natural atmosphere.

Setups like this have helped me keep and breed many bog and swamp critters, not just caudates. Hope you are having good luck with them. Just wanted to add this for future readers.