Stop Keeping A. Gracile Like A. Tigrinum!!!

[sde]

Hi,

I am rather upset with the advise people are giving other people about keeping A. Gracile. I have more that once heard them say that they can be kept like that of A. Tigrinum, no no no! I disagree! I live in a area that has a large amount of A. Gracile and I can say that it is nothing like the habitat that tigers inhabit. A. Tigrinum, as I understand, should be kept in a dry terrarium with lots of dirt for digging, and maybe a water dish/pool. I think that A. Gracile should be kept in a lot of dirt too, but not dry dirt! I cant find them in dry dirt but they seem happy and numerous in most dirt or mud. I think they should be misted/sprayed with water at least every few days. In my opinion they should be kept in moist or wet/muddy soil, it is better suited for them I think. I think they too should have a water dish/pool or even a glass divider. In my opinion the biggest problem with keeping A. Gracile like A. Tigrinum is that the soil is too dry, and, well, everything is too dry! A. Gracile will probably spend most of their time underground like A. Tigrinum, but will enjoy misting and probably come out regularly during the night/dark hours. I just don't like the idea of having A. Gracile in such a dry environment, they need to be kept in wetter conditions in my opinion. With lots of plants and misting and a water area and lots of soil and most/muddy soil, so please stop keeping you A. Gracile like A. Tigrinum! Also, I am fairly confidant that any A. Gracile anyone has is WC so it probably came from a environment nothing like that of A. Tigrinum environment and then putting it in a environment like that of A. Tigrinum I find unfair/harmful.

So please everyone, stop keeping your A. Gracile like A. Tigrinum .
-Seth

 

[Jan]

Well first off I must ask you where you received your 'understanding' on substrates and environments for tiger salamanders? Wherever it was, the information is erroneous. Tigers' substrate should be moist...not wet enough to wring out water, but moist. Here is a beginners caresheet for keeping tigers: Caudata Culture Articles - Tiger Salamander 101

I would not advocate maintaining any of the fossorial ambystomas in a muddy, wet environment. Excessive moisture in a captive environment, especially without proper ventilation, inevitably leads to health problems.

 

[frogman]

I understand your passion for this species, but your information on keeping tigrinum as Jan said is false. I have been keeping gracile for almost two years now in a tank that is almost identical to my tiger tank. They are relatively hardy species and one with a lot of personality.


Evan

 

[sde]

Ok, so, in my opinion they tanks that people keep their tigers in is pretty dry, maybe I always have kept my sals too wet, but to my understanding that is what they like. Now I know that a terrarium is different from the wild, but why not simulate it? To my understanding tigers ( in the west states at least ) live in pretty dry environments. Since almost all tigers a WC don't you think that most people would want to keep them like that? In my opinion they do. But to keep A. Gracile ( which are almost invariably WC ) in conditions like that of A. Tigrinum I find wrong. They live in totally different climates. So why did I say all that? Well because if you take a WC tiger and put in your best rendition of a tiger habitat it should be happy. But if you take an A. Gracile and put it in a A. Tigrinum habitat it is not going to be as happy. it is not just the dirt dryness that I don't like, it is the amount of hides, the amount of live plants. Here in the pacific northwest, where they live, it is green and wet and the ground is moist and there is a lot of forest. This is their habitat, they like it here, in my opinion when you put A. Gracile in an A. Tigrinum tank it is not going to fit their needs the same as if you put them in a A. Gracile tank. Now I know that you can only simulate the wild so much but it really isn't that hard in my opinion. You asked where I got that info on the dirt being dry from, I have just gathered it from what there tank looks like and I have always thought that that was the case. I very well could be mistaken, but over the last few years that is what I have thought, I don't know why, it just made sense and I thought it was that way. I apologize that I am wrong, I obviously was confident I was right, however it would seem that I am not, I am sorry. But I still think that they should not be kept the same way a tigers. I still think that they should be kept in moister conditions. Honestly I think the amount of hides provided for A. Gracile should be tremendous. In my opinion they are a shy species, and do not like being exposed. A lot of plants and hides is good I think, keeps things shady and more covered. There is a way I keep some species that I will call the 'boring yet easy' set-up. It is where you put in some stacked rock and or some stacked rotting wood and layer/cover it with moss. It works like a dream, it has kept my A. m. Macrodactylum and E. Eschscholtzii nice and plump for the last month and a half now. you really don't see much of them but it keeps them happy and healthy. In my opinion a set-up similar to this is best for A. Gracile, with a large amount of dirt of course. Honestly I don't think this species should be kept at all. They are shy animals in my opinion, they don't readily except food. They hate being molested but are not squirmy because they are scared ( I would presume ). Evan apparently has kept them nicely though, so I may be wrong, but still I would not suggest keeping them.

Now, I am not saying I disagree with what you guys are saying, you have brought up some good points, but I still dislike the idea that they are being kept like A. Tigrinum.

-Seth

 

[frogman]

Seth, I am curious, do you even keep tiger salamanders?

 

[sde]

No I do not, why do you ask?

 

[Jan]

No I do not, why do you ask?

Many of us on the forum have been keeping salamanders for years - in my case, keeping tigers, etc. for 50 years. We learn through years of experience, not opinions without basis.

 

[frogman]

Many of us on the forum have been keeping salamanders for years - in my case, keeping tigers, etc. for 50 years. We learn through years of experience, not opinions without basis.

This is why I ask, you should not be so anxious to jump to conclusions in the future Seth. Learn through experience

 

[TylototritonGuy]

Sorry but I agree with Jan here, without any actual evidence to prove your findings about A.tigrinum (Which I will add are incorrect entirely) from your own experience, how can you have an opinion? Like Jan said previously, no amphibian should be kept completely "dry" as you put it and not completely "wet", there should be a balance when keeping anything or a simulation of wild habitats (as you stated, Seth).

I find it odd that anyone would state that A.tigrinum should be kept in "Dry Dirt" as I have never kept them this way? The only species of Amphibia I have kept that required completely drying out is members of the Scaphiophyrne genus which require a dry period of upto 7-8 months to replicate wild behaviour patterns to try and induce breeding.

If you haven't kept something though, how can you have an unsupported claim of how something should be kept? I state this also because you don't currently keep A.gracile according to your public profile?

Something else you brought up was this;

They are shy animals in my opinion, they don't readily except food. They hate being molested but are not squirmy because they are scared ( I would presume )

I underline a part of the quote stating that you "Presume" that they are scared. I would of hoped that anyone talking about anything would know with up-most certainty, what they were stating as a fact was correct or not. Lots of species that are kept in captivity nowadays (outside of the A.gracile topic) still perform Thanatosis, does this mean that they shouldn't be kept in captivity either?Just because a species isn't "squirming" because you're holding it, doesn't necessarily mean it's scared. However I will quote this from a popular website with Citations & References to relevant/factual evidence based documents;

Terrestrial adults may defend themselves vigorously. When threatened, they may close their eyes, assume a head-butting position, and elevate the tail. They can secrete a sticky white poison from glands on the head, back, and tail, using head-butts and and tail-lashes to smear the poison onto the attacker (Stebbins 1985; Licht and Sever 1993).

Sounds like if they were "scared" or under threat, this species would perform a Fight behaviour more often than most.

 

[sde]

You don't have to keep them to know how they are kept. Yes, i was getting my opinion of them being kept dry from looking at other peoples tanks. To me it looked pretty dry, but like i said before, maybe i have always kept my phibs too wet.

And yah, i presume. I don't know that for a fact, that is why i said that, but none the less, it would definitely seem that way.

You said that they DO preform thanatoses? I Never said that the ones that do should not be kept. I think that is great. it shows aggression which is good, in my opinion it means it is going to more readily except food. That link that you pulled up, it is a general description of what they MAY do not necessarily what they will do. I have had individuals do that to me, but still, most do not, and that does not mean that they aren't scared. And the other thing is that any A. Gracile that are kept are almost without a doubt WC, which means that they are probably not going to do as well in captivity, no matter how aggressive they are. And your remark on me not keeping them, guess why i don't? Because i tried to more that once and it did not work, because they were not accepting food much. And sorry man, but now you too are assuming when you say "Sounds like if they were "scared" or under threat, this species would preform a Fight behavior more often than most." This is a assumption, have you even caught one of these before? I have caught dozens and they more often than not do not do much at all. They may secrete the poison i little, but it is not too common. And i have only ever twice had one that i caught go int the "bucking" posture. I think you should take your own advise and and hope that you actually know what you are talking about. And I'll try to stop assuming too. -Seth

 

[TylototritonGuy]

You don't have to keep them to know how they are kept. Yes, i was getting my opinion of them being kept dry from looking at other peoples tanks. To me it looked pretty dry, but like i said before, maybe i have always kept my phibs too wet.

But you do have to be in possession of all the facts before you make such a ridiculous remark.
Interesting deduction, however it's still only your opinion that you are stating and no actual facts? Can you safely say that you have spoke to every A.tigrinum keeper all over the world and looked at every enclosure they are kept in and say that they are all dry? Funny, don't think I have ever posted a photo of the enclosure I keep mine in.

And yah, i presume. I don't know that for a fact, that is why i said that, but none the less, it would definitely seem that way.

So you only presume then, so how can you convince anyone that is reading your posts that you are right? You also use "Definitely" in the same sentence about the same topic you "Presume". Which is it, do you Definitely think this is the case or do you Presume it's the case?

You said that they DO preform thanatoses? I Never said that the ones that do should not be kept.

I never said that this species performs Thanatosis? Hang on a minute, you stated that you personally think the species, A.gracile, should not be kept in captivity because they are a shy animal and shouldn't be molested? If that is the case, doesn't it mean from what you said that all animals that behave similar to this shouldn't be kept in captivity? Blimey, that means almost half my collection shouldn't be kept in captivity then... Remember this is following your opinions and views.

I think that is great. it shows aggression which is good, in my opinion it means it is going to more readily except food.

What are you on about? Thanatosis loosely translated from Greek means "Putting to Death", "Apparent Death" or "Playing Dead" so how can anything be aggressive if it's playing dead? Either way, you could argue using your views and opinions that forcing an animal to be aggressive is also as bad as "Molesting" the individuals making it shy, couldn't you really? which I see as highly contradictory to say the least.

That link that you pulled up, it is a general description of what they MAY do not necessarily what they will do.

I am well aware what the quote I posted says to the word. Notice that I actually underlined it and bold it before you decided to do it? (Appears like you might be trying to clutch at straws?) Anyway, yes it does state may and from my experience working with the species in the past, more of them were exactly what the description states, performing fight behaviour rather than Thanatosis.

I have had individuals do that to me, but still, most do not, and that does not mean that they aren't scared.

Who said that it meant they aren't scared? You stated that you "presumed" that they were and that you didn't really know or was in full possession of the facts.

And the other thing is that any A. Gracile that are kept are almost without a doubt WC, which means that they are probably not going to do as well in captivity, no matter how aggressive they are.

Without a doubt, but does that mean what you said further down your comment "Because i tried to more that once and it did not work, because they were not accepting food much." that this may be a huge factor in why they didn't do so well? Yet again you could argue that if you delve deeper into this topic, that even you possibly wasn't keeping them how they needed to be kept (Which is what started this entire discussion). Perhaps you were correct in stating that this species shouldn't be kept in captivity, but this is just opening a can of worms

And your remark on me not keeping them, guess why i don't?

I don't like guessing really, so tell me?

Because i tried to more that once and it did not work, because they were not accepting food much.

Oh hang on, you already told me? Well what's the point in asking someone to guess if they can't guess?

And sorry man, but now you too are assuming when you say "Sounds like if they were "scared" or under threat, this species would preform a Fight behavior more often than most."

How is that an assumption? That is elaborating from a factual quote that I posted prior to my remark, making it an elaboration for delving further into the topic? Interesting method of trying to debate I must admit...

This is a assumption, have you even caught one of these before? I have caught dozens and they more often than not do not do much at all. They may secrete the poison i little, but it is not too common. And i have only ever twice had one that i caught go int the "bucking" posture.

From my own experience with A.gracile, I can safely say that I have had more individuals try and perform Fight behaviours with me than not. This is an opinion from my own personal experience and not a fact at all, which is exactly the same as your own experience.

I think you should take your own advise and and hope that you actually know what you are talking about. And I'll try to stop assuming too. -Seth

Excuse me? But you are the one posting your own views and opinions as FACT? I have merely challenged your opinions and views on this topic. I know what I am talking about because I have had prior experience with both and in all honesty, I posted because your views/"facts" on A.tigrinum keeping were ridiculous and unfounded.

You don't know what you're talking about, for the pure fact that you don't keep A.tigrinum as you stated above to other members/users challenging your opinion. How can you state how anything is kept or any other piece of information for that matter, without being in possession of all the facts? You can't, FACT.

IF you said the following;

After speaking to 937 keepers that keep A.tigrinum, I can say that the said species is kept in Dry Dirt making it unsuitable conditions for A.gracile.

You would be presenting a fact, not an opinion, which people will question but you are safe in the knowledge that you had evidence to back up your claim. However, you didn't, you were just preaching to people that what they are doing (If they were doing it i.e. Keeping A.tigrinum in dry conditions and keeping A.gracile in similar conditions) was/is wrong. At the end of the day, you stated some people were recommending others into keeping A.gracile like you would A.tigrinum, well doesn't this depend on the keeper as to how they keep A.tigrium? It does entirely, rendering your thread almost useless in the respect that you cannot claim that every keeper keeps A.tigrinum the same way as the handful of keepers you are using as an example in your claim.

Anyway, this isn't really a debate as the "Goal Posts" are being changed around and the opinions you state as fact are still unfounded with no evidence except "This is what I saw from peoples set ups", So I will not post any further.

Thank you

 

[sde]

I too will stop posting, i am tired of people not getting what i am saying, or just not reading all of my posts. -Seth