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Surprise baby Plethodon jordani

Wildebeestking

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Sure. Here is a better map which is more up to date.

AmphibiaWeb - Plethodon jordani

I am not sure what that isolate in Georgia is all about. I have doubts that is really P. jordani. You can also look at other species which were considered to be jordani in the past, such as shermani or cheoah. There is also the Highton and Peabody 2000 paper published in The biology of Plethodontid Salamanders. This book is full of a number of manuscripts and is super expensive. It is also very hard to get those manuscripts outside of that book. I could also recommend some articles on the evolution and relationships of Plethodon, but they do not really address geographic distribution.

Also, while Berkleymapper apparently did get an upgrade recently, which is kind of cool, their collection is not always up to date with the taxonomy. For instance, this next map is the map for Eurycea multiplicata. This species is only found in the Ouachita mountains, however in this map, it has the species ranging into the Ozarks also. However, the species in the Ozarks are actually E. tynerensis. This is described in Bonett and Chippindale 2004. "Speciation, phylogeography and evolution of life history and morphology in plethodontid salamanders of the Eurycea multiplicata complex" Interesting enough, even if they did update the map to what I just said, in a few more years, species in the Ozarks and Ouachitas are going to be split more based on genetics. This work will come out of the lab I work in, Dr. Ron Bonett.

I don't mean to pick a fight with anyone, but if those are P. jordani, then they were collected from within the park. I am not going to report anyone or anything, I am just saying. I am very familiar with Plethodontid salamanders in that area of the country. Especially, Desmogs, which often share similar distributions with Plethodon. For example, Desmognathus imitator also is primarily with the park, except for one place I know of where they do not look like imitators and it is on private property. Taherman also probably knows that place well since I am pretty sure he has collected from the park himself. Also interesting, is the specimens he collected may represent distinct species. He should really publish his thesis.

Now if you want me to comment on Plethodontid breeding, I will.

Does anyone ever have any issues with little white mites crawling on their Plethodontid eggs?

Mike

Fascinating, There's so many different types of plethodontids. Too bad they aren't very common in captivity.
 

taherman

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Sure. Here is a better map which is more up to date.

AmphibiaWeb - Plethodon jordani

I am not sure what that isolate in Georgia is all about. I have doubts that is really P. jordani.

Those maps have some issues too. The Rabun county, GA locale is actually a red-legged P. shermani population that somehow got mixed into the jordani map. They have updated some of the maps and they can be seen here, along with the other former "jordani" species (shermani, montanus, metcalfi, etc.):

http://igsaceeswb00.er.usgs.gov:8080/mapserver/naa/

There is also the Highton and Peabody 2000 paper published in The biology of Plethodontid Salamanders.

I have a paper copy of the book, but not digital. I'm pretty sure the attached map from another of Highton's papers (Highton, R. 1995. Speciation in eastern North American salamanders of the genus Plethodon. Annual Review of Ecology and Systematics 26:579–600.) utilizes the same data set. You can clearly see the red cheeked form's restricted distribution.

I don't mean to pick a fight with anyone, but if those are P. jordani, then they were collected from within the park.

Exactly. And unless you have a scientific collection permit associated with them, they are not legal. There is no way anyone got a permit to collect from the park for the pet trade.

Taherman also probably knows that place well since I am pretty sure he has collected from the park himself. Also interesting, is the specimens he collected may represent distinct species. He should really publish his thesis.

Yes I have (with permits), and yes I should...working on it. Just have a lot on my plate at the moment :p

Does anyone ever have any issues with little white mites crawling on their Plethodontid eggs?

Never seen that. Often battle fungus though. Terrestrial eggs are not easy!

Tim
 

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FrogEyes

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Beamer, B.A., & M.J. Lannoo, 2005. Plethodon jordani Blatchley, 1901. P816-818 IN M.J. Lannoo, ed., Amphibian Declines. University of California Press, Berkeley and Los Angeles.

This article presents a map and introductory comments which describe a southern disjunct population in Rabun County [the map includes Towns as well]. Later in the same article, the range is described as to be entirely within GSMNP, without mention of Georgia.

Amphibians and Reptiles of Georgia and Salamanders of the Southeast both indicate P.shermani in Towns county and P.metcalfi in Rabun county. Articles in Amphibian Declines indicate the same for P.metcalfi, but not P.shermani (which is otherwise marginal and possibly hybrid within Towns county).

Plethodon jordani rabunensis was described from Rabun Bald, Rabun county, Georgia, and is now considered a synonym of Plethodon metcalfi. This may be the source of confusion - somewhere along the line, someone assumed P.j.rabunensis to be "P.jordani", when it is now a different species.

HOWEVER...

Despite the first article above stating that there is no evidence of range change in Plethodon jordani, there is actually significant evidence of large range changes in this species complex, with genetic markers from several species being found 40-100 km away from their current range [different mountains] in members of species which are not close relatives. At lower elevations, there is also widespread hybridization between multiple species, which renders species assignment impossible in many cases. I don't know if hybrid animals which look like P.jordani occur outside GSMNP.

http://life.bio.sunysb.edu/ee/wienslab/kozakpdfs/Weisrock_Kozak_Larson-2005.pdf
D. W. WEISROCK, K . H. KOZAK and A. LARSON, 2005. Phylogeographic analysis of mitochondrial gene flow and introgression in the salamander, Plethodon shermani. Molecular Ecology (2005) 14:1457–1472.

Regardless of the origin, it's great to see some babies! Here's hoping my P.montanus can do the same!
 

Neotenic_Jaymes

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Those maps have some issues too. The Rabun county, GA locale is actually a red-legged P. shermani population that somehow got mixed into the jordani map. They have updated some of the maps and they can be seen here, along with the other former "jordani" species (shermani, montanus, metcalfi, etc.):

So which ones are the good range maps and which ones are the disqualified ones? I assume only the ones Taherman and Msteffen provide are good. They are well informed/sourced people, so I guess any of the ones I dig up aren't qualified and should be straight dismissed.

Salamanders in complex with P. jordani found outside the GSMNP have been found with red cheeks, so even me calling my group/trio Plethodon jordani could be in question. Not all of the individuals I have even have truly red cheeks and a P. shermani came with the group collected from the same site. I can provide pics of the P. shermani of course.

There is no way anyone got a permit to collect from the park for the pet trade.

I didn't buy these. AND I DIDN"T collect them. I didn't receive them from the pet trade. Me having them may be not be legit but thats not truly certain. With this much feed back on Plethodon jordani I don't even desire anymore individuals or even pursue. I will admire the ones I do have. Wholesalers/pet shops/ect are pet trade not me having them.

No more PDF's or range maps and legalities. If so post a new thread for those topics. If anyone wants to talk about it face to face (so nothing gets mistranslated/or if I have to translate something) I'd be glad to. I will be in Toledo OH in a few weeks visitng. The topic of this thread is the breeding of Plethodon jordani.
 

Wildebeestking

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Regardless of how they are collected (Which it sounds like he was unaware of their exact location of collection). I think its wonderful that he managed to breed them in captivity. You don't see plethodontids being bred all the time, especially such rare ones. Congrats Jaymes and hopefully you continue to have such good luck with all your caudates.
 

FrogEyes

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Those maps have some issues too. The Rabun county, GA locale is actually a red-legged P. shermani population that somehow got mixed into the jordani map. They have updated some of the maps and they can be seen here, along with the other former "jordani" species (shermani, montanus, metcalfi, etc.):

So which ones are the good range maps and which ones are the disqualified ones? I assume only the ones Taherman and Msteffen provide are good. They are well informed/sourced people, so I guess any of the ones I dig up aren't qualified and should be straight dismissed.

Salamanders in complex with P. jordani found outside the GSMNP have been found with red cheeks, so even me calling my group/trio Plethodon jordani could be in question. Not all of the individuals I have even have truly red cheeks and a P. shermani came with the group collected from the same site. I can provide pics of the P. shermani of course.

Older range maps will include P.cheoah, P.amplus, P.meridianus, P.montanus, P.metcalfi, P.shermani, and P.jordani as a single species with a large range. Even older maps which recognize subspecies would probably map P.jordani jordani to include what are now P.jordani and P.cheoah. The most recent maps obviously illustrate each of seven species with much more restricted ranges. That said, Only one recent map includes Georgia in the range of P.jordani. There are three reasons to reject that map: 1) it doesn't state a source for that part of the range, 2) the same article contradicts itself later by stating that P.jordani only occurs in GSMNP, and 3) all other current maps and papers do not include Georgia in the distribution.

P.jordani and P.cheoah overlap, and the latter may have partially red legs and sometimes red cheeks. Thus P.cheoah might be confused with both P.shermani and P.jordani. P.shermani appears to overlap both P.cheoah and P.jordani, to some degree, but that's not entirely clear to me yet. P.cheoah itself does not appear to hybridize.

The PhD thesis (2009) of Matthew Chatfield focused on hybrids in the Balsam Mountains. This included hybrids of P.jordani and P.metcalfi, with red-cheeked hybrids occuring at relatively low altitudes in some cases. While Balsam Mountain is well within GSMNP, Mt Sterling is at the northern edge, where he found evidence of downhill range expansion of P.jordani, possibly by way of male P.jordani interbreeding with females of P.teyahalee. While I have long considered mtDNA to be non-evolutionary in many respects, it has been suggested that this might not be the case: Since mitochondria are the energy factories of the cell, some mitochondrial lines might be better able to function in different climate [temperature] conditions than others. A species with high altitude mitochondria might be unable to invade downslope, but all of its unique features could possibly move into warmer climates simply by obtaining mitochondria of a more heat-tolerant female. There could well be some low altitude P.jordani on the northeastern edge of GSMNP. While the animals in that area have a hybrid ancestry, they have all the traits of P.jordani except mtDNA.

I have often wondered about your previous avatar and whether it might be P.cheoah. If you can confirm the original locality for yourself, it could go a long ways towards confirming excatly what you have.
 

Neotenic_Jaymes

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I have often wondered about your previous avatar and whether it might be P.cheoah. If you can confirm the original locality for yourself, it could go a long ways towards confirming excatly what you have.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Andrew I'm working on that. Still haven't gotten a response.
 

rust

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They are found outside the park at lower elevations, I have personally found them. It was along the boarders though.
 

Vern5384

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Part of the range does extend slightly outside the park's boundaries onto the higher elevations on the Qualla Cherokee Indian Reservation in NC. As far as I know, a tribal permit would be required to legally collect them here, as well, but I'm not certain. Most likely came from GSMNP, however. I'm certainly not nutting up over it or anything like that, but do be careful what you post and say on forums like this because you never know who's looking.
 
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