T. hainanensis

[erik]

Interesting and apparently hardy species. An upcoming paper puts these very close to vietnamensis phylogenetically.

I do not have any available btw.

 

[andy]

Great shots of a rarely seen species...thanks!

 

[TJ]

Wow, fantastic, Erik. The first pictures of live T. hainanensis I've ever seen, in fact. Are those two separate individuals in those two pics?

The skin sure is smooth. Have you any T. asperrimus or T. vietnamensis to compare them with morphologically?

We had some discussion of this species a long time ago at this link:

http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/13/25370.html

(I removed the picture of a preserved one that I'd posted there but the link still works)

(Message edited by TJ on June 14, 2006)

 

[mark]

Wouter and I have some photos of this species on our site, including a photo of the underside: http://www.tylototriton.org/Index/Photogallery%20map/photo%20hainanensis.htm

Morphological they're very similar to vietnamensis and asperrimus-complex animals, and they are indeed presumed to be very closely related.

 

[wouter]

Erik, very interesting, do you have more info available about that paper?

 

[erik]

Wouter-When it comes out I'll let you know. I just heard some minor info.

Tim-well I have wenxianensis. They (T.h.) are pretty distinct. The skull of hainanensis is definitely broader (and you can see comparison of skeletal features in at least one Chinese language book). They also lack the 'horns' of wenxianensis. There are a total of six with at least one pair in the group.

 

[TJ]

Very cool, Erik. Best of luck with breeding them.

For the purpose of further comparison with your T. hainanensis, here's a photo of what's said to be (I wouldn't know for certain as I don't have experience with them

) a T. asperrimus (top) and what's clearly a T. vietnamensis (bottom):

<font size="-2">(my photo, not my animals)</font>

The skull shape sure seems different from T. hainanensis!

Taking off from the previous T. hainanensis thread, Chinese herpetologist Ermi Zhao concluded in Studies on Chinese Salamanders (which is almost two decades old now!) that T. hainanensis "should be a synonym of T. asperrimus based upon my close comparison of some types of T. hainanensis in CIB (Chengdu Institute of Biology) with specimens of T. asperrimus." I wonder what he meant by "some types" of T. hainanensis. Has anybody heard there is more than one type on Hainan Island? It's a pretty big island at 34,000 square kilometers (Okinawa is only 1,200 sq km!)

I'm also looking forward to seeing that report you mentioned

I checked out the pictures on your site, Mark. Nice!

 

[mark]

As far as I know hainanensis is distributed on two mountain ranges, separated by a geological barrier. So perhaps there could be two distinct forms, but I doubt it.

There behaviour is very asperrimus like. Like the deposition of eggs on land, etc.

 

[chris]

Does Zhao mean Type specimens (ie Holotype, Paratypes etc)?

 

[wouter]

T. hainanensis inhabits also one other area next to the two mountain ranges, but I doubt just like Mark that there are multiple forms.

Zhao indeed only means holo- and paratypes. Studies on Chinese Salamanders is a great book, but the conclusions which are made in most of the articles are only justified with a few animals. I'm therefore a bit sceptical about some of Zhao's conclusions.

To me, T. hainensis is very similar to T. asperrimus. The animal you showed in your pic btw Tim, looks really strange... What a pointy head, unclear warts and dark toes for a T. asperrimus...
T. wenxianensis should become Echinotriton to my opinion, because of it's morphology.

 

[TJ]

Interesting. I didn't know that about hainanensis' distribution.

To give Prof. Ermi Zhao some credit though, that report was from long ago, he was working with what he had available then, and he's probably refined his conclusions on all sorts of things by now.

As for the asperrimus in that photo looking strange for an asperrimus, well there's asperrimus and there's asperrimus

. Somebody once walked me through the different locations they're found and the differences in morphology among them. Wish I'd taken notes!

Here are some more pics of the same, if Erik doesn't mind...

This individual is 17-18 cm in total length. The skin is much grainier than Erik's hainanensis.

(Message edited by TJ on June 16, 2006)

 

[jennifer]

Looks like it's time for some photo updates on CC

 

[foster]

Those are beautiful animals Erik. I wish you the best of luck with them.
Chip