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T. natans question

N

nate

Guest
This weekend I received a pair of T. natans. One arrived with a protuberance from its cloaca. I think this is the phallodeum, but it has been out and has not retracted it. I assume this is not normal. Any ideas? Thanks.

67461.jpg
 
P

paris

Guest
wow!! a rare picture for sure. these guys are wiggly to handle but you might try seeing if you can use a water based lubricant on it to help poke it back in. post this again on the gymnophiona.org site, you may get more info from someone there who may have had the same thing happen in the past.
 
E

edward

Guest
It could be a phallodium. Another possibility is that it is a gill from a neonate.

Ed
 

michael

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Hi Nate,
Welcome to caudata.org I don't have a good guess what it is. I have seen lots of animals harmed by poor diagnoses or bad treatment of properly diagnosed problems. Without a positive diagnoses and proven plan of treatment I wouldn't poke around at it. I'm hoping it's going to have a baby.

Best
Michael
 
P

paris

Guest
i beg to differ, it looks like the diagrams i have seen for the phallodeum, guys. the shape of that tail end says its a male (females have more triangular 'tail' ends) its now been days in that state, is it still that way nate? in my research mice i have dealt with prolapse pe nis before (admittedly mammals have bones in there along with swollen tissue) and the mice went back to normal function once the tissue was recovered from the irritation. problem is while its on the outside exposed it may get damaged and aggravated. is the tissue still healthy looking like in the picture or has it become more red and swollen? is he eating normally?
 
E

edward

Guest
Hi Paris,

While it does look like the diagrams of the phallodeum, it also looks like a neonate's gill when they first are born.
I have seen both being extruded from the cloaca and at that point they look very similar.
While the shape of the cloaca can be used to sex the animals, it isn't a 100% based on some of the necropsies we have done at work, whether this is an artifact of preservation technique or when the necropsy was performed I can't say.

Regardless if the tissue is still extruded, then medical intervention is needed.

Ed
 
N

nate

Guest
It is still everted, but the condition has not changed (i.e., it looks the same). I have not been able to get either to feed as of Friday when I got them. I have offered pinkies and worms so far.
 
P

paris

Guest
nate
pinkies are a bad food choice. they do fine on slices of european night crawlers, blood worm cubes (this does make a mess though), shrimp and krill (as a treat not as a normal diet) and even dry floating turtle food sticks (reptomin). in the wild i am told they are pretty much scavengers near where the locals clean their fish, so fish chunks may also be an option-but for me they have never caught live fish i have given them.

i know that copulation between these animals is a long drawn out process, but i dont think it lasts for days so its extrusion for this long should be considered abnormal. problem is a local vet might not even have a clue as to even what a caecilian is-try posting on the site i mentioned. you may get better results/info as its caecilian specific. or you may try to contact dr jim o'reilley to see if he has any insight.
 
N

nate

Guest
Paris,
Thanks for the advise. I have been waiting for confirmation of membership at gymnophiona.org before I could post.
 
E

edward

Guest
Paris,

On what are you basing the statement that pinkies are a bad food item? This is not supported in any of the literature. Pinks are a perfectly acceptable food item as long as they are not fed in excess. I have and still do offer pinks to T. natans and I have had a colony of these going with multiple reproductions at work for over a decade now.

Ed
 
P

paris

Guest
ed,
well im basing it on the common 'thou shalt not' that i have beaten in to my head over the years, on the 'high fat' and 'mammals are not normal food items for amphibians'. im not being totally knee jerk here- for a new animal i wouldnt even offer it cause of its 'novelty', i would go for something easy to digest. on a purely economic level -is there a benefit of offering pinkies over other food items which require less biomass to produce? how do you offer them normally -just drop them in? what becomes excess too?
 
E

edward

Guest
snip "well im basing it on the common 'thou shalt not' that i have beaten in to my head over the years, on the 'high fat'"endsnip

While higher in fat on a kcal basis when compared to worms, they are in the same ball park on a kcal basis as crickets and mealworms. (Didn't you attend the amphibian nutrition lecture at IAD? I seem to remember an entire power point page on pinks....). When looking at diets for amphibians and other animals you need to look at it based on kcals, this allows you to figure out what percent of the diet should be protien, fat and carbohydrate, pinks fall well within the dietary numbers for carniverous amphibians.

snip " and 'mammals are not normal food items for amphibians'."endsnip

Based on a lot of opinion that doesn't hold a lot of credible weight. If mammals are not "normal food items" then please explain how they became genetically wired to recognize it as a food source? (particuarly caecilians as they hunt by scent/taste). Otherwise they would reject it...

snip " im not being totally knee jerk here- for a new animal i wouldnt even offer it cause of its 'novelty', i would go for something easy to digest."endsnip

Often when a new animal refuses food, it is necessary to move beyond the normal dietary offerings to get it to eat. There is no indication that pinks are hard to digest for amphibians and this is not supported by the nutritional analysis.

snip "on a purely economic level -is there a benefit of offering pinkies over other food items which require less biomass to produce? how do you offer them normally -just drop them in?"endsnip

Yes, if you have an inappetant animal that is refusing to eat. Pinks are nutritionally denser than most of the commonly used feeder items and as a consequence it is a lot easier to overfeed on them. (and it requires a much smaller amount of biomass). Depending on how my time is running, I thaw them out and drop them into the tank. If I have time I tweezer feed them.

snip " what becomes excess too"endsnip

Feeding an amount over and above the caloric needs of the animal on a weekly basis. (I say weekly because I feed two to three times a week). To get the exact numbers you need the weight of the caecilian, the temperature at which it is kept and the kcal/gram as well as the number of grams of the food item you are feeding it. You can plug this into the formula and/or the chart in Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry and get the numbers.


Ed
 
N

nate

Guest
To update everyone, the male's protuberance has not gone away, although it is now only about half as large as in the photo above. I have also not been able to get either to eat. I have tried cut-up pinkies, cut-up worms (night crawlers and red wigglers), cut-up fish, and crickets.

Ed: I read that you think water quality may be important. I first used water from my dehumidifier and now have switched to water from my sink with added Reptisafe to remove chemicals. I have kept many aquatic amphibians and never found a problem with my water. But, I cant think of any other reason why they will not eat. I have what I think is ample space (2 adults in a 20L) and ample hiding places. Water temp is 80F. How can I get my water as you suggest: Ph 7.0-5.5 and very soft?

Paris: Where do you get your shrimp/prawn, I cannot find this in the pet store?

Any other suggestions, anyone?

Thanks,
Nate
 
N

nate

Guest
Nope. The males back end got real swollen as if there was blockage. I had to put this one down. The female never accepted any food and died. Oh well.
 
C

charles

Guest
Sorry to hear that.

By the way I meant better in the last post.
 
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