The Rigamaroll of Getting a Caudate Import Permit in Canada

YGDS

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Hello All. I have been reading through and familiarizing myself with the laws here in Canada with regards to importation of so-called high risk Caudate species into Canada. Besides a couple species (e.g. C. orientalis and P. waltl), most are either vanishingly rare or well nigh unfindable. Although I've seen Hynobius dunni in the possession of a Canadian breeder just starting with them, and found a T. lizhenchangi at a local store. I am considering going through the gauntlet of acquiring a permit in the next couple years to import Tylototriton sp., likely from a US source so as to avoid Bsal from Europe or Asia, as I think it'll take that long just to get the requisite write-ups and contacts in order to acquire the permit, plus swimming through all the legaleze. The rejection chance is very high from what I understand, to the point that no local independent herp store seems willing to attempt it.

All that being said, has anyone here waded through that thicket and come out successful on the other side since the law was enacted in 2017? Any experiences would be helpful. Thanks!
 
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John

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If you're thinking shanjing from the US, the only seller in recent years has a dubious reputation at best and has sold other animals that are 100% illegal. I suspect these too are totally illegal. Buyer beware, that's all I can say.
 

YGDS

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Thanks John. That is good to know. Really, the initial goal is to run a study on Bsal using a patent IP under my name from work I performed when I was with the AAFC. As a control, testing it on species that have co-evolved with Bsal would be required. It seems sourcing from the USA is a dubious idea, so it sounds like South Korea and China might be better places. Having all of your ducks in a row is essential with live animal studies, especially if level 2 or higher laboratory conditions are required. All permits have to have a scientific research outcome. Since this isn't the science board I didn't talk about it here. I thought sourcing from US would prevent unwanted Bsal contamination, but if the only breeder known is a shady character, I don't see an ethics committee going for it. At present I'm not even sure if we are permitted to carry out such research here in Canada, as Bsal to my knowledge hasn't been introduced yet due to our strict permitting conditions.

Again, that's very helpful.
 

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T. shanjing are already in Canada (I have six coming soon once weather warms). I don't think many people are working with them though. Not sure you would get enough numbers for a study though. Toronto zoo I know used to breed them too, if they still do may be worth reaching out to them?
Seeing as we don't have any BSal confirmed here I would be surprised if they let you bring it in to experiment on.
 

YGDS

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Seeing as we don't have any BSal confirmed here I would be surprised if they let you bring it in to experiment on.
Yes, I may have to actually do the research in Asia or Europe, probably Germany, even then....lots of hurdles.

I'm just in the planning stages now, and the whole enterprise might be untenable. However, just a question, where are you getting your T. shanjing from? I've been scouring over a lot of places and I can't find any sellers or breeders up here. I even posted a thread looking for Tylototriton breeders on here and thus far I've had no dice. Of course, it isn't the only genus that could work, but I'd still be reasonably interested in some for my own collection.
 

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You want to acquire Tylotritons to purposefully infect them with Bsal? You want to do it so badly you're considering relocating to another country?
Who do you work for?

It's perfectly acceptable to be a grown adult just looking for salamanders for your own personal collection without any reason besides "you want them". No one here will judge you if you're not really a researcher. We're into all sorts of weird kinks on this bus, no shame in this game.
 

YGDS

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You want to acquire Tylotritons to purposefully infect them with Bsal? You want to do it so badly you're considering relocating to another country?
Who do you work for?
Oh deary me....you got me in the gut on that one. In all seriousness though, I am actually a scientist and have a MSc in agricultural biotechnology, and soon a PhD in biochemistry/structural biology. I've just had an addiction to amphibians since I was young, and thought that I could perhaps merge my career with a really urgent and difficult problem facing them these days.


For proof, and at the risk of revealing my identity. Here is the patent: US Patent Application for POLYNUCLEOTIDE COMPLEXES HAVING IMPROVED DELIVERY INTO CELLS Patent Application (Application #20200299688 issued September 24, 2020) - Justia Patents Search
And the related paper: Tetrabutylphosphonium Bromide Reduces Size and Polydispersity Index of Tat2:siRNA Nano-Complexes for Triticale RNAi

Frontiers is sort of a naughty word to some scientists, but I think the article is sound (well it's my work, so I need to stand by it). I did that work in triticale, but I have good reason (somewhat confidential until followed up) to believe it could also be used on Batrachochytrium fungi. The primary hitch is that the adjuvant chemical, TBPB, is highly toxic to aquatic life, so some fiddling would be necessary. I think a sulfonium salt might work as I found that some aggregation prone proteins seem to stabilize in the presence of trimethyl-sulfonium iodide, still not sure on how much of an envirotoxin it would be though. The idea would be to use representatives of the major genera in Asia and Europe as models. I think a foundational study could use 1-2 species from each continent, with 5 biological replicates for each treatment, so I'd need substantive numbers, as I'd need to test a number of different conditions and do optimizations and find a way to measure fungal load that doesn't use PCR, as PCR can give substantive experimental artefacts, and is really best just to measure presence of an organism in a tissue swab or isolate. My thinking is to measure by HPLC some unique mycotoxin produced by the Bsal from normalized skin samples taken from infected salamanders. Early days yet, and I've got a lot to chew on over the next couple years. Of course, I think the first thing to publish is a proof of concept with dish cultured fungi, before we go straight into animal testing (ethics reviewers can take their sweet time). Although, I didn't have to get any permission when I did work in beetles.

Although, yes I'd love to have a tylototriton shanjing in my collection, just because they are cool.
 
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Jake

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You want to acquire Tylotritons to purposefully infect them with Bsal?

Of course, I think the first thing to publish is a proof of concept with dish cultured fungi, before we go straight into animal testing

OK, thanks for clarifying.
 
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