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Too old to boogey [hyla veriscolor]

vincent

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Right for those who have read the previous posting on breeding HYLA VERISCOLOR here is an update.The young female now 12mths old spawned again on Tuesday in a small plastic tank 12x8x8 inches. The old female that I have had for over six years ,the condition of her developing tadpoles is as follows wellover 50% are deformed with bent tails or no front limbs some have come onto land with no front limbs or limbs that have not been able to break through the skin:(
however the remainder of the tads look healthy and two look like they are ready to complete metamorphis into frogs .I have not had this problem with any other amphibs so it is not diet related or water quality. Ringing people up who have far greater experiance and success than myself ,the opinion is that the female is coming to the end of her breeding span I got her as a wild caught adult.The trouble is females are so hard to get that you use them more than once and fertility must decrease as they get older ,so I would recommend that after 4 years old you dont use them .However how do you know the age of wild caught.:smile:
 

Kurt

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Is it possible that these deformities are caused by a pathogen? That would be my guess.
 

Greatwtehunter

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I used to see this same exact problem in my older female Dendrobatid frogs. I always just chalked it up to the older females not being able to transfer to required amount of nutirents to the eggs like she could when she was younger.
 

John

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Have you considered that you have both Hyla versicolor and Hyla chrysoscelis and that these particular eggs are hybrids? Please don't tell me you can tell the two species apart.
 
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vincent

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Great response guys this is what it is all about , not just writing about your success but also when you have problems. I think it is age as Justin remarked when she was a lot younger I GOT NEARLY 100 % SUCCESS but this is the 6th year I have had her and I dont know how old she was when I bought her then. As for same species I bought over twenty from the same shop ,from the same supplier over a period of two weeks so they are all the same species[ I THOUGHT ABOUT HYLA CHRY] But they were all in the same batch so I ruled that one out ,plus I was very successfull the first time she bred Still this is a learning process and hopefully I think I might get twenty out .I wont use her again though, we know this happens in mammals as females get older more deformities arise. Once again thanks.
HAVEFUN:grin:
 

John

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The two species do coincide and use the same breeding ponds, and as far as females are concerned there is no way to tell one species from the other just by looking at them.
 

Jennewt

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I still think you might want to consider diet as one possibility. It's possible that this species has slightly different requirements than the other frogs you've bred. Certainly, maternal nutrition can cause this kind of problem. Just a to be clear - I'm not suggesting that she has gotten a poor diet, only that perhaps this species has some requirement that isn't known or that is different from other species.
 

vincent

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I still think you might want to consider diet as one possibility. It's possible that this species has slightly different requirements than the other frogs you've bred. Certainly, maternal nutrition can cause this kind of problem. Just a to be clear - I'm not suggesting that she has gotten a poor diet, only that perhaps this species has some requirement that isn't known or that is different from other species.

Yes I thought about that they do go mad for bluebottles which in England we can buy the larvae of via fishing tackle shops and I will supplement every feed once she comes out of hibernation until she breeds not every fourth feed as I do now.:happy: Thanks
 

vincent

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I still think you might want to consider diet as one possibility. It's possible that this species has slightly different requirements than the other frogs you've bred. Certainly, maternal nutrition can cause this kind of problem. Just a to be clear - I'm not suggesting that she has gotten a poor diet, only that perhaps this species has some requirement that isn't known or that is different from other species.

Thanks Jennewt
Just spoken to agood friend of mine he is really knowledgeable on amphibs he has bred various things for over 40 years he had a similar experiance a few years ago with GREEN TOADS BUFO VIRIDIS out of nearly 900 tads he didn't get any with front limbs .He puts it down to commercially raised food ,thats why when newly caught stuff spawns ,you get a very good success rate. We must be missing something he recommends not to over do the vitamin powder as this can affect their health aswell Foliage sweepings if possible twice aweek he says must help improve things. So I hope to be able to try next year with a different feeding regime any suggestions ;) However he is having a bad year and stuff is not spawning at all for him at all.
HAVE FUN
 

John

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Frankly that doesn't make sense to me. Malnutrition should not result in complete absence of limbs, let alone in all offspring.
 

katebutton

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We make successful crosses between H.v. and H.c. all the time in the lab and never have the high number of tad deformities you're describing.
 

John

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We make successful crosses between H.v. and H.c. all the time in the lab and never have the high number of tad deformities you're describing.
The offspring are not fertile though right?
 

vincent

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Frankly that doesn't make sense to me. Malnutrition should not result in complete absence of limbs, let alone in all offspring.

John if I'm correct you caught youre adults [hyla veriscolor] this year and they spawned 100% success rate I have had mine in captivity in a vivarium for six years now and I have had problems increasing on a yearly basis . There arent enough people breeding the species to accurately say how it is done with long term captives. Another point I used to be able to breed Axoltols' by the hundreds now they have changed the drinking water catchment area I cant breed any, a few friends who keep fish have had very similar problems and told me never clean out on a weekend as more chemicals are added and they have lost literally hundreds of baby fish Maybe it is a combination of every thing . Another point the weather in the UK has been barmy from red hot to freezing in a matter of days , the female must have been in amplexus without producing spawn over at least a 3 month period maybe its the female herself what is abit on the dodgey side?
HAVE FUN:happy:
 
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John

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My logic has to do with a University level education in biology, not my frogs.
 

vincent

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My logic has to do with a University level education in biology, not my frogs.

Don't blame your self mate someone has to go to these places:D and then some of us go elsewhere:wacko: Right hows this then for a theory a friend of yours John recommends keeping the taddies under a U/V light and suggests that my tadpoles had basically rickets as found in human beings:( So as you understand the lack of U/V would hinder the taddies ability to absorb certain vitamins. so basically they are having the same problems as Iguanas kept under the wrong lighting not very healthy, fed the wright foods but unable to assimilate the important stuff:wink: So all being well next year !
HAVE FUN
 

John

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You are trying to tell me that a nocturnal animal needs UV light. Right.
 

vincent

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You are trying to tell me that a nocturnal animal needs UV light. Right.

I don't think taddies are nocturnal mate ,they always seem to be very active during the day in shallow edges of ponds
[A] because its warmer in the shallows and it helps with the growth
whilst they are in the shallows they will be exposed to U/V
My comments are from observing Rana Temporaria and Bufo Bufo in the wild in Britain and when I raised Hyla Arborea my taddies were kept in tanks in the window, so exposing my tads to U/V may make a difference all I can do is give it a try, interestingly enough I've now got 14 babies bouncing about with no defects, so it hasn't been a total loss:cool: However I thought this is what forums are for to sort problems and give ideas a try. Remember the bad old days of reptile keeping before computers you were stuck on your own or trying to ring zoos' for advice. If you kept amphibians at many reptile clubs you were the nutter in the corner.Ah! the good old days:D
HAVE FUN:happy:
 

John

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Having observed a Gray treefrog breeding pond several times this spring, I can tell you that these tadpoles don't hang out at the surface unless they want to be eaten. They only come up to take gulps of air every now and then because the water tends to be turbid (i.e. it's very cloudy) and have a relatively low Dissolved Oxygen content. I am not convinced by this basking tadpole business either. Aside from the fact that you would have discovered something that has escaped science all these years, the gray treefrog tadpoles tend to be very dark in colouration for much of their development - dark animals tend not to absorb much UV light.
 

vincent

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Having observed a Gray treefrog breeding pond several times this spring, I can tell you that these tadpoles don't hang out at the surface unless they want to be eaten. They only come up to take gulps of air every now and then because the water tends to be turbid (i.e. it's very cloudy) and have a relatively low Dissolved Oxygen content. I am not convinced by this basking tadpole business either. Aside from the fact that you would have discovered something that has escaped science all these years, the gray treefrog tadpoles tend to be very dark in colouration for much of their development - dark animals tend not to absorb much UV light.

It has been noted several times that species of tadpoles will follow the sun around . I myself noted big shoals of taddies containing green frogs and European tree frogs[don't ask which as I could not catch the adults to identify] always in very shallow very clear and very warm water as it was lit by the suns rays whilst herping in the South of France,lots of snakes too. However I thought it was the other way round the darker the animal the faster it heats up absorbing U/V and enabling it to bugger off out of a predator's way as with lizards, We still haven't come with a definite reason for the deformities as yet :confused:
 
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