Triturus Karelinii - newbie questions

[paice]

Hello, i will intorduce my setup and have a couple of questions. Without further udo, heres my setup:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2xyx1vb0f4j7dmj/IMG_20150101_171254.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/h3ho0ag4yhgto94/IMG_20150102_154832.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/unduu4bd9jg1aa0/IMG_20150102_154954.jpg?dl=0

Since i am working a lot, in order to reduce the maintaining time i set up a vivarium with fake plants and filtering. Below you can see how i set up the filter so that it wont create a disturbing current (just like a small waterfall). And it seems to create almost no current at this time. However one question to ask is whether i have to few terrestrial area or not. Also there is almost no flat land surface and i dont know if that is a problem. (Though i dont think so at the moment considering it has been almost a month now and they seem happy)

The first couple of days was a little stressy, the male was continuously sitting outside of the water, but that bullet is dodged now. They seem pretty happy (at least thats what i am hoping for)

At the moment it is not really possible for me to find live food. I am mostly giving them freezed bloodworms. (and they seem to like it a lot when i gave it with tweezers) and submersible fish food (they definitely like it less but they seem to eat it too). I am trying to feed them once every 2 or 3 days, but now i increased it to definitely once every 2 days because they seem to get into fights trying to follow the tweezers if i wait once every 3 days. (Maybe i am feeding them inappropriately, help would be greatly appreciated there). Usually i am cutting a freezed bloodworm cube into 2 and give that amount while feeding them. (The amount part is something that i cannot find on the net and again help being appreciated.)

Soo ... i hope you guyz also like the photos, and see you around soon since i am not planning to get them killed.

Oh and by the way, last week, after having them within their new home for 2 weeks, female started to lay eggs. I will also have lots of questions about them too ... soon

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lx88a1bau2et85c/IMG_20150101_171317.jpg?dl=0

 

[jAfFa CaKe]

Hello,
Please take some time to read the CC article about Crested newts if you haven'y already- It can be found here- Caudata Culture Species Entry - Crested Triturus species

The setup is not great. It looks quite small, could you give me the dimensions of the tank? Frozen bloodworms are a good food, but not perfect. Please follow this link for some 'inspiration' on what to feed- Caudata Culture Articles - Food Items for Captive Caudates

Regarding the terrestrial island, although it might not be used, it is good to have just in case. If either of them start staying on land check the water temperature, and the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. This can be done using a water test kit and a thermometer. Also, bear in mind that this species does like to have a terrestrial period during some parts of the year, but they will usually stay aquatic all year round. The setup could be improved in various ways. I know you said you don't have the time for live plants, but some species (Such as Elodea or Hornwart) take very little looking after, in fact, they take almost none at all. Just add water and they'll grow like weeds! With enough plants, filtration wont be necessary, but for now, keep the filter. Remember to do water changes.
Jake

 

[paice]

size is around 15-20 gallons (16.33 to be precise). Total amount of water at the moment is 10 gallons. For the last month water temp seemed to stay between 68-72 F.

The actual reason i wouldnt want live plants is, if i do i would also require a light source. Although in the winter it is fairly easy to keep this temp it wouldnt be in the summer. So i am also trying to avoid lighting. But within a month i will get some java moss at least and plant those too.

As for food at the moment it seems i dont have a lot of alternatives, so i am trying to make them accustomed to pellet food at least, giving it within a petri dish, taking out after like 3-4 hours so that the water doesnt spoil. I am also planning to feed brine shrimp at least for more food alternatives.

by the way, female started laying eggs for the last week. I also have a 100 gallon tank and i would start to set that up if i can get a couple of offsprings in the next 6 months maybe.

By the way thanks for the feedback. Take care

Ps: oh by the way, i already read the article above, but there is one thing i couldnt understand. My newts are 3, at most 4 cm long, tho the article you mentioned tell about crested newts being able to grow as large as 12 cms. I had another experience with this species before for 2 years and i dont think they would grow up to be that large. Maybe i am completely wrong and start to set up that 100 gallon tank sooner

 

[jAfFa CaKe]

The tank is too small, a general rule of thumb for newts is 10 gallons of water per newt (Not ten gallons of space) The food is not optimal, but pellets are good if you use the right ones. 4cm and breeding? That seems quite young, I don't have experience with crested newts but they can grow up to 12cm. With T. karelinii and T. macedonicus being the largest of the genus. Plants like the ones I mentioned do not need lighting, I keep them and they grow fine (slower, but fine) without any lighting, excluding natural day light from windows. All Triturus species suffer from a genetic mutation that prevents 50% of eggs developing.

 

[Azhael]

I'm extremely confused. First of all, i don't see any T.karelinii, but i do see a male Ommatotriton sp.
4cm for a Triturus means the animal is a larva. Certainly nowhere near breeding age. All Triturus, except T.pygmaeus can grow significantly larger than 12cm, with sizes of 15-16 being pretty average and 18cm not being uncommon. What you've described makes no sense, i'm afraid.

Ok, let's see, about the tank. If your goal is to minimize maintenance, i'd say you are going about it the wrong way. The best way to achieve that is having a VERY densely planted tank. You can have lights that produce little heat, plus there are ways to disipate that heat effectively and just raising the lights above the tank a few centimetres will prevent most of the heating effect. You don't need very intense lights, anyway.
Having large amounts of live plants means you will have to do fewer water changes and that you can be a lot more laid back about cleaning, because the plants themselves will lock nitrogen compounds in their tissues, complementing the bacteria and maintaining optimal conditions with minimal effort. In a large enough volume, with enough plants, maintenance can become so minimal that you can get away with not doing any for even a couple of months (more if tank aesthetics are not a concern). Plants will also substitute a filter entirely, rendering it pointless, which means less heat production, no vibrations and no undesirable currents.

The substrate you are using is dangerous. It can be swallowed and cause serious trouble. It also traps huge amounts of debris an uneaten foods and difficultates cleaning and feeding. I strongly recommend that you change it for something safer before there are problems. Very fine silica sand is the ideal option, but you can also go bare bottom, which is the most practical option.

You should take advantage of the full volume of the tank. The larger the volume, the more stable conditions will be and the less maintenance is required. All the terrestrial surface they are ever going to need can be provided with a piece of floating cork bark. It offers them the choice to hang out on land but without occupying any significant volume.

Frozen bloodworms are a very inadequate staple. They are severely lacking in calcium and are generally not nutritionally complete. That can lead to very serious nutritional deficiencies that will cripple your newts for life or eventually kill them.
You should consider setting up an earthworm culture at home. It's extremely easy to culture them and it requires minimal effort and dedication. It will provide you with a top quality, completely safe food source year-round.

 

[Chinadog]

I could be wrong, but it looks like there are two holes in the lid at the back? Most newts (especially small ones) will climb the glass from time to time and could easily escape through there. Also, if they are Ommatotriton, are you aware that they will need a terrestrial environment most of the year? They are not known for being a particularly aquatic species, so trying to force them to live in the water all the time could be quite risky.

 

[Stupot1610]

If you could post a picture of the actual newts we can identify them for you. As has been said, if they are Omatotriton they need to be kept terrestrially most of the year.

Stuart

 

[Neotenic_Jaymes]

Definitely an Ommatotriton species. Also it looks to be in aquatic phase. Ommatotriton are mostly terrestrial from what I've read. I've spoken to other people who keep (Banded Newts) and they also mention the terrestrial lifestyle of this species. You will need a mostly terrestrial setup to rightfully accommodate your newt/newts in the future.

 

[paice]

Thanks for your help guys ! here is a couple of pictures:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/atg0ix9nyy7je16/IMG_20150101_171207.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/i0gyv1u0mo27be9/IMG_20150102_154739.jpg?dl=0

Another problem. its been 2 weeks since the female started laying eggs now. And from the articles if it were triturus, i would have had almost half the eggs died. Kept the outside and I am doing 100% water changes everyday to the eggs, and apart from 2 (one got damaged during gathering) none died so far. I am feeling my initial guess as triturus is incorrect.

As far as terrestrial-ity goes, for the last month i am watching them carefully, and i only seen female go to land once for a very short period, and the male only for around 2 days when the setup is new (most probably due to stress). Though your concerns duely noted. At the moment i am making a platform that will stick on one edge with vacuum (so that the total water mass is also not wasted due to land mass) and put that also. I am thinking of putting moss over it in order to keep it moist. Do you think it is a good substrate for land habitat?

I thought the pebbles were large enough for them not to swallow, but again concerns duely noted. I will change the bottom layer with carpet. (these things will require some time to get a hand on here since they usually cannot be found on normal pet stores). Also planning to put java moss within the tank planted over a wire-frame.

Lastly, i collected earthworms already. Will take time to get the culture going i suppose. And as for calcium, well i also suspected that. At the moment i am feeding them submersible pellets once a week to make up for it, and they seem to have an interest on those too. But aye, till the earthworms start up maybe i can also use fish slices too once a week. Thanks for the comment.

Can i also ask you guys if newts require steady intake of uv light? because i dont think my tank is getting enough sunlight at the moment and from my iguana i know that some tropical reptiles require uv. I dont know that also applies to newts or not.

oh and about those holes, yes there is two holes there, but i sealed those off with translucent plastic strips so that they cannot escape.That is why you think there is openings there, but there actually isnt.

Thanks guys

 

[jAfFa CaKe]

Okay, they are most definitely Ommatotriton. Due to your location, they are most likely Ommatotriton vittatus and they are WC, unfortunately but they could well be CB. Be careful with the holes, take no risks at all, you wouldn't believe the tiny holes that are used as escape routes.

 

[Azhael]

Yes, i would go with O.vittatus aswell. Certainly Ommatotriton and not Triturus. Did you collect them? You should make sure that the laws in your country allow for legal collection as there is an excellent chance that they do not. Even if it is legal, there are good ethical reasons not to.

I'm not sure what you mean by carpet, but if you mean one of those plastic fake grass ones, that's not a good idea. I would recommend sticking to very fine sand.
Java moss is an excellent choice, but you are going to need more plants than that. You should look into finding Vallisneria, Hydrocotile, Elodea, Ceratophyllum...
The earthworms you have collected are unlikely to be a species that cultures well indoors. Most of them don't. Indoor cultures are usually made with Eisenia or Dendrobaena species which tolerate very high densities, reproduce fast and do very well in culture conditions.
If the pellets are carnivore specific, they should be ok. Fish slices are not, i would recommend not using them. They are also nutritionally incomplete and they don't seem to digest it very well.

No, they don't require UV light, but they do require a nutritionally complete diet. Newts are amphibians, by the way.

Good to know the holes are sealed, but that creates the issue of having no ventilation whatsoever. That is going to raise the temperature and prevent adequate gas exchange. You should get rid of that lid and make one with wire mesh, it's very easy and very cheap. The excellent ventilation it will provide will also get the tank a couple of degrees cooler or more.

You should check out the other CC articles about water quality, food, etc, and make sure to read as much about the genus Ommatotriton as you can. The first thing, however, should be to check with the authorities and make sure that it is legal to keep them at all.

 

[paice]

Thanks again. Learned a lot today as to what to do.

They are not wild caught, bought em of a pet shop. But i know that they are species local to Turkey since i saw them before in a lake trip like 10 years ago. Thought it would be more suitable to feed those than fired bellies etc, since they would be more resilient to Turkey air conditions.

sand to go then for the bottom and more plants .. well it would be much easier for me that is for sure.

and as ventilation i have a big hole with fly prevention net in the middle of the tanks top. So i could say they are taking pretty good ventilation

thanks again guys for the help

 

[paice]

Oh and as far as Turkey and legal issues concerned .. Well there must be some i definitely know .. since 14 of the 22 red listed amphibian species live in Turkey. But i never heard of any wildlife rules or reserves. (Seems like government gives emphasis on tourism more than wildlife, which i find disgusting). For my species i went through a good search whether they are bred or not, and found out that there are a couple of newt farms in Turkey, thus im 99% sure that they are captive bred. (Of course you can never be 100% sure, pet shops may also but wild life species too ... lack of ethics .. hmmp).

 

[jAfFa CaKe]

Just because you bought them from a shop doesn't make them CB. Pack the tank with as many plants you can get your hands on, you won't have to do as many water changes.

 

[Azhael]

I would like to learn more about those farms you mentioned. It seems....improbable.
Not knowing anything about them and whether they are legitimate, i have to say that buying adult newts from a pet-shop is almost always a near certainty that the animals are WC. I just find find it very odd that there are farms for a native species and that they sell them as adults to shops....that sounds all kinds of dodgy.
Given that as far as i understand both species of Ommatotriton are in decline, i would be very surprised if they are not protected.The laws protecting this species could be there and there is no particular reason you should have heard of them. In fact, most people in europe are not aware that amphibians are protected even though in the vast majority of european countries, for example, all species are protected and collection is illegal (and in most, possession of native species is also illegal or very heavily regulated). I wouldn't be surprised if Turkey had similar standards. The best way to make sure is to ask the authorities directly.

 

[paice]

SU SEMENDER

its in Turkish, so it is practically saying that they are breeding around 2k newts a year since 1985. Well apart from being pets, i know that newts are used as live food for larger carnivores and as bait for freshwater fishing. I dont think it is improbable really since these are not in least concern category of conservation lists.

 

[Chinadog]

Newts used as feeder animals, are you sure? All newts are toxic, some can cause fatality's if eaten! I do know that Tiger salamander larvae are used as fishing bait, but I've never heard of newts being used.

 

[elKendo97]

Newts used as feeder animals, are you sure? All newts are toxic, some can cause fatality's if eaten! I do know that Tiger salamander larvae are used as fishing bait, but I've never heard of newts being used.

In some villages of the interior of Spain is still possible a few locals eat spanish ribbed newt, is not the first time that I hear it.

 

[Chinadog]

Using Plurodeles to feed "larger carnivores" would be even more bizarre, there are the defensive spines to think about as well as the toxins.

 

[elKendo97]

Using Plurodeles to feed "larger carnivores" would be even more bizarre, there are the defensive spines to think about as well as the toxins.

Is clear, however I guess will not eat them integer, if I remember correctly used to prepare the broth, as "settlement" on boiled.