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Two viv questions re newts and toads

M

matthew

Guest
Hi all,

I've just got around to finishing the second half of Charles Snell's (famous?) video "Succeeding with Newts" and it has left me with brimming with ideas. Oh, and a couple of questions.

1)He says glass-climbing and escaping can be avoided if you have a glass rim inside the tank going all the way round. (I guess most tanks come with this now to support a lid, but have gaps at the corners.)He says the newts will climb vertically and hit the horizontal ledge, finding the obstacle insurmountable. Do we think this is 100% true? Is there any way a gravity-defying newt could make it over the ledge?
2)Having enjoyed raising newts from purchased eggs last year I may give toads a go this year; having satisfied myself to the legality of it, I'd like to give Captive Bred natterjacks a go.
My thinking is to make a project out of recreating an outdoor enclosure inside my garage, using a massive 5 foot tank I own.
I think I'll need:
1)a good mixture of substrates, including a sand area;
2)a viewing light, as in a traditional aquarium tube;
3)a basking light;
4)some kind of heating arrangement for when the garage gets too close to, or even reaches, freezing in Winter.
Numbers 2 and 3, or 3 and 4, may overlap.
I plan to cut holes in the glass to increase ventilation (so no more fish in that tank!)...
Comments?!
 
M

matthew

Guest
(P.S.
Sorry for howling spelling and grammatical errors... running late so hurried!)
 
A

alan

Guest
"1 He says glass-climbing and escaping can be avoided if you have a glass rim inside the tank going all the way round. (I guess most tanks come with this now to support a lid, but have gaps at the corners.) He says the newts will climb vertically and hit the horizontal ledge, finding the obstacle insurmountable. Do we think this is 100% true? Is there any way a gravity-defying newt could make it over the ledge?"

We discussed this here during the last week. Consensus was that this is generally true for larger amphibians.

"I think I'll need:
1)a good mixture of substrates, including a sand area;
2)a viewing light, as in a traditional aquarium tube;
3)a basking light;
4)some kind of heating arrangement for when the garage gets too close to, or even reaches, freezing in Winter.
Numbers 2 and 3, or 3 and 4, may overlap."

You'll need heating at night time most when a basking lamp would not be appropriate. However, in a garage, you probably won't need any extra heat, except possibly during VERY cold snaps.

"I plan to cut holes in the glass to increase ventilation (so no more fish in that tank!)... "

Bad idea, and difficult to do. Just leave the top of the tank open (apart from the escape-proof ledge).
 
M

matthew

Guest
Hi Alan - thanks for quick response -

Re the ledge thing and newts:
>We discussed this here during the last week. >Consensus was that this is generally true for >larger amphibians.

Sorry for not paying more attention to the thread - I got a bit lost with the "tape is 'standing over' to the inside" thing. Thank-you for focusing on the is-the-ledge-enough-question as well as the whose-mass-is-too-great-to-make-it-up-the-glass factor.

I guess the reason I came here again with this issue is that I just can't summon up the confidence I want to in the ledge-method Charles demonstrates. You talk about a "consensus" but "usually" and "most" still worry me... I guess Jennifer's point about against-the-odds escapes is still at the back of my mind. I've not found the reassurance I sought so on with the mesh screen tops for now.

Re the natterjack set-up:
>You'll need heating at night time most when a >basking lamp would not be appropriate. However, >in a garage, you probably won't need any extra >heat, except possibly during VERY cold snaps.

Oh, please don't think I was going to use a basking light as extreme winter heating, like some kind of perpetual day!

First, it was the very cold snaps I had in mind; on these occasions my garage gets very cold.

Second, I suggested an overlap between the above elements of my potential set-up because I thought that maybe the one thermostat could control a pendant basking lamp by day and a non-visible-light emitting pendant by night (set to a minimum temp).
Fundamentally, I'm not sure what the other (or best) options for a nocturnal temperature safety-net might be, [unless I heat the garage itself]... heating matts... under or on the side? ceramic heater... not in a tank, surely?

"I plan to cut holes in the glass to increase ventilation (so no more fish in that tank!)... "

>Bad idea, and difficult to do. Just leave the >top of the tank open (apart from the escape->proof ledge).
Two last thoughts on this one:
a) How hard can it be - fly mesh, cutter, aquarium silicon...
b) Adding such ventilation *is* sometimes done to prevent CO2 toxicity in froglets and toadlets, isn't it? (Maybe someone else could jump in here... I got the info on this from the British Dendrobate Group's site via another party.)The tank is massive and very high-sided.

I just want to get the design sorted out right from the off :)
 
A

alan

Guest
You run the risk of cracking the whole tank. Just fit a mesh top if you are concerned about escape/want to prevent "intruders" and you'll have plenty of ventilation.

As for heating, If you don't want to heat the whole garage to frost free temps (I can understand that), I'd tend to use a SMALL heat pad taped to the outside of one end of the tank (not underneath) to keep it frost free and let the animals choose where they want to be - hot end or cold end.
 
C

chris

Guest
Matthew,
the glass rim does not work for alpine newts. I had some alpines in an aquarium with a glass rim, and often found them sitting on top of the rim...
Ask Morg how he keeps his captive bred natterjacks. If memory serves, he lost almost all of his newly metamorphosed toadlets, as they were too small to eat any readilly available foods (even fruitflies)...
Chris
 
M

matthew

Guest
Cheers Alan & Chris.
(I have had very useful chats with Morg, Chris, and will go back to him.)
 

morg

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Alpines are indeed great climbers, and will escape through the smallest of gaps, with the smaller ones climbing over ledges with ease.
Larger heavier adults will try, but usually become unstuck at the ledge

I did lose most of my natterjacks last year right after metamorphosis,but I hope to do better this year if I can get hold of the tadpoles again.
Although the now, almost one year old toads set up does have an escape proof lid,it is mainly to keep food items from escaping, as these toads[or mine at least] cannot climb glass at all.
 
A

alan

Guest
It's not just alpines that can climb, most smaller (=lighter) newts can. I hatched a brood of T.vulgaris a few years ago and they not only got out but also climbed all over the room - curtains, up racks and into all the other tanks in the room (after the moisture presumably).
Older = fatter = fall off the glass!
 

morg

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As if to prove me right about alpines and ledges, my male alpine newt has somehow managed to escape this morning.
One of the females is full of eggs, but had stopped laying after just a few eggs, so I transfered them to a larger well planted tank to hope to get her started again.
This tank has the ledge that has been discussed, a screen lid, then aquarium hood with light.
Knowing how good this species is at escapes, I checked and re checked, untill I was sure the tank was escape proof, but he's somehow got out.
The newt room has been taken apart to try find him, but theres no sign.
All I can do now is to leave damp towels around the room floor in the hope that he will head to one for the dampness.
 
J

jennifer

Guest
Morg, I'm sorry to hear about the escaped alpine. I know that awful feeling one gets when a newt vanishes. Are you sure he's not hiding under a rim in the tank somewhere?
 

morg

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No such luck Jennewt, the tank lid, and the whole newt room was almost taken apart searching for the newt, then damp towels were placed in 8 places around the room where I thought he may have headed towards, and left overnight.
No newt in any of the towels this morning though, I think hes a gonner.
 
C

chris

Guest
Unlucky ...
sad.gif
I lost two males in one night like this.
If you want, I am getting about 4 pairs of adults in a few weeks - I can send you a male if I ask my friend for an extra...
Chris
 

morg

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Thanks Matt and Chris.

Thank you very much for the offer of a replacement Chris, but this species are just too good at escaping so I daren't risk getting another one.
 
C

chris

Guest
Morg
I think that if they are given a solid land area, they don't try to escape. The reason mine tried and succeeded to escape was that it was the end of the breeding season. If you were to give them, say, a 3-4 foot tank, half and half you could have several pairs all year round and I doubt they would escape. Clear seal do metal, closefitting lidds with mesh on each side and a closefitting sliding glass panel in the middle. The alpines couldn't get past this.
Let me know if you change your mind
Chris
 
J

jesper

Guest
Sorry Morg,
I really really do know this feeling too, I have taken apart my 90m2 apartment several times to try to find pygmaeus escapees. Everytime they actively try to escape they succeed no matter how I try to stop it. This has happened everytime I have tried to change their setup from totally terrestrial setups with no open areas to semiaquatic, aquatic or terrestrial with open areas. The little buggers absolutely hate to be seen. I have seen them climb upside down on glass - I can only say as Morg, I have given up on these.

(Message edited by jesper on March 21, 2004)
 

morg

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Chris
You hit the nail on the head there.
When I kept these newts semi aquatically with a land shelf they were fine living mostly terrestrially except breeding season.
Even though T a apaunus are supposedly mostly aquatic, I found that given the choice they are completely the opposite.
They were in this tank as a temporary measure to try stimulate the females into egg laying, and so I hadnt added a land area.
 
M

matthew

Guest
I can testify to the quality of the Clear Seal mesh-&-glass lids. The only things I've seen successfully escape were very small crickets, from the sides of the central glass pane. They look good too.
 
J

james

Guest
Perhaps we should start a League Table of newt acrobatics. Smooth newts must feature close to the top with Alpine newts being their main challenger. As for Marbled newts - they are rubbish at climbing! Anyone noticed Marbled or Crested newts climbing? Please don't scare me, I have a tank full of 'em.
 
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