axo has not eaten since August, blood blisters and skin infection

[Wildgreen]

hey update to my last post, my axolotl is still sick. she was fridged for a bit, it didnt seem to make a difference. i have tried a few different meds (furan 2, kanaplex, general cure, meth blue, salt, and just finished 14 days of baytril topically). nothing seems to make it better, except the meth blue seems to help with some fuzzy fungus that develops on her toe tips.

she has sores all over, blood blisters and white spots (almost like ick spots). she is not eating, but i have gotten her to take 3 guppies throughout the months of her refusing nightcrawlers, salmon pellets, and black worms. she ate a small molly last night (fish are all tong fed to her). she acts mostly normal, hanging out on the bottom not floating or anything. my vet doesnt really seem to have a clue and their next appt available was the 29. so looking for any advice!

ive been told by someone on fb it could be chytrid/bd or ATV (Ambystoma Tigrinum Virus). she just seems to be wasting away, and I worry about trying to force feed with the sores all over her skin... see the pics im adding.

its also very strange she has had NO gill infections, when she used to have them off and on her whole life (ive had her about 5 yrs)

 

[Otterwoman]

Is there any way you can take her to the vet?

 

[Wildgreen]

Is there any way you can take her to the vet?

ive already been to the vet, they gave me the baytril. and like i said in the OP their soonest appt to follow up is on the 29 so i have to wait until then for her to be seen...

the toe fungus seems to be flaring the most now, she is missing a couple toes. ive been trying to clean her feet with q tips/hydrogen peroxide the last couple days which seems to get it off but it comes right back (similar with the meth blue dips i did).

i got her to eat half a night crawler just now!! (cut into pieces and tong fed)

attached pics of her toes here its really hard to get a decent pic of the fungus but you can kind of see how fuzzy it is.

her water quality is 0/0/5-10 ammonia/nitrite/nitrate temp is about 65F

 

[Wildgreen]

pics of my set up, 29 tall. the breeder box has a couple guppies i have to feed her (from my own tropical tank).

 

[Murk]

I'm quite uncomfortable with the amount of medication you have been putting in without even really knowing the cause of the problems, especially in combination with salt baths and recurring water quality problems.

I'm not an expert, but a lot of the medication you have been using has antibacterial functions - likely crashing whatever cycle you had left in the tank. Salt baths too will really make your axolotls skin weak and vulnerable - hydrogen peroxide definitely. Fridging will remove appetite for a while.


Medication and treatments can be necessary, but they always have downsides.
In some cases, the upsides are well worth the downsides.
But chucking in all these different treatments, without enough time in between for her to recover from them, when she is already weak and vulnerable due to water quality issues and loss of appetite... well, it will only make problems worse.

First, make sure she has a healthy environment:
A cycled tank, no ammonia, no nitrites, low nitrates, decent temperature, pH, hardness and mineral levels.
Only if you have a healthy environment can you be sure the issues aren't caused by something simple.
0/0/10 sounds good. Is this stable? She's obviously very weak and vulnerable right now, so even slight fluctuations could be problematic.

Then, if problems persist (but you are now sure it's not simply caused by the environment), you need to diagnose what is the problem. With a vet or the internet for help if needed.

Only then, only once you are absolutely sure the problem isn't cause by a simple water issue, and you are sure what is the actual cause, should you do a targeted treatment.
Skipping the first two steps is very risky. Frankly, I'm also very surprised that a vet who's not really sure of the problem would still prescribe an antibiotic (but I'm well aware my culture is more antibiotic-averse than the US)


Again, I have no clue what the initial problem was.
I do know that the instability, constant changes and stress of the past two months will not have helped.

Getting your water quality and general environment fixed might not solve all the problems, but it will always help and it should be step one anyway.
It's also something we can help with much better, and which you can do while you are waiting for the vet.

 

[Wildgreen]

I'm quite uncomfortable with the amount of medication you have been putting in without even really knowing the cause of the problems, especially in combination with salt baths and recurring water quality problems.

I'm not an expert, but a lot of the medication you have been using has antibacterial functions - likely crashing whatever cycle you had left in the tank. Salt baths too will really make your axolotls skin weak and vulnerable - hydrogen peroxide definitely. Fridging will remove appetite for a while.


Medication and treatments can be necessary, but they always have downsides.
In some cases, the upsides are well worth the downsides.
But chucking in all these different treatments, without enough time in between for her to recover from them, when she is already weak and vulnerable due to water quality issues and loss of appetite... well, it will only make problems worse.

First, make sure she has a healthy environment:
A cycled tank, no ammonia, no nitrites, low nitrates, decent temperature, pH, hardness and mineral levels.
Only if you have a healthy environment can you be sure the issues aren't caused by something simple.
0/0/10 sounds good. Is this stable? She's obviously very weak and vulnerable right now, so even slight fluctuations could be problematic.

Then, if problems persist (but you are now sure it's not simply caused by the environment), you need to diagnose what is the problem. With a vet or the internet for help if needed.

Only then, only once you are absolutely sure the problem isn't cause by a simple water issue, and you are sure what is the actual cause, should you do a targeted treatment.
Skipping the first two steps is very risky. Frankly, I'm also very surprised that a vet who's not really sure of the problem would still prescribe an antibiotic (but I'm well aware my culture is more antibiotic-averse than the US)


Again, I have no clue what the initial problem was.
I do know that the instability, constant changes and stress of the past two months will not have helped.

Getting your water quality and general environment fixed might not solve all the problems, but it will always help and it should be step one anyway.
It's also something we can help with much better, and which you can do while you are waiting for the vet.

well thanks for making a bunch of assumptions lmao if you read everything i posted you would know i didnt use them all simultaneously, this has been ongoing for months. she was in a separate tank for treatments that got 100% changes (also why i specifically mentioned DIPS and BATHS because im not using that in her actual tank). my vet said the salt is fine to continue using as it helps fight infections..

she is in a fully cycled tank. the only reason i had water quality problems was because my TAP was that way, not that i crashed the cycle. if you read my posts you would see i have since moved her back to my previous house that does NOT have the problems with the tap water... i even posted the current parameters so i dont even understand why you brought up cycling.

so you have literally nothing to add that is actually helpful? i made this post because i cant seem to find ANYONE that has had something similar via google and was hoping for tips on what it could even be since my vet seems to have no idea either.

sorry if i sound rude but your comment was pretty frustrating and unhelpful, like the only other comment before you asking if i can take her to the vet??? did either of you actually read the whole post before commenting?? is this site really this dead and completely useless as the only comments i got have told me to do things I AM ALREADY DOING AND AWARE OF.

 

[SkunksandSals]

I read your post on facebook. Pm me if you want to go through your options. What dosages of medications are you using. Im thinking its protoazian leading to a secondary bacterial infection. 2 doses of Metronidazole injected into a worm while in 100% holtfreter's and 6-8 drops of methylene blue while in kannaplex or furan 2.

 

[Murk]

as the only comments i got have told me to do things I AM ALREADY DOING AND AWARE OF.

Well no, because my advise was that you are doing too much.

I did read all your posts, I'm aware of the situation, and I understand the frustration.
I'm sure I could have written it down more tactfully, for which apologies.


The way I see it, no one knows what's wrong with your axolotl - and yet you continued to do treatments.
You just stopped with the baytril (after two weeks), which is quite heavy, and you have been doing hydrogen peroxide "for the last couple of days". From your post history, sometime in the last month you have fridged her and another time you have done salt baths.

Each of those costs her energy and strength, right?
Axolotls can lose appetite for a few days after salt baths or fridging (and surely after heavier treatments as well) - they need time to recuperate after a treatment.
Every skin treatment also makes their skin very vulnerable, so they need time to regrow their strength.

Fungus growing back immediately after a salt bath, hydrogen peroxide is very common - because it makes their skin more vulnerable.
Ideally, they remove a very large fungus growth, and then the axolotl has enough strength on her own to fight the new fungus that starts to grow.
If you immediately do another treatment when you see the new fungus, you only reset the status quo every time.



What I'm saying is that since no one knows what is wrong with the axolotl (vet included, me included - seemingly everyone on the internet included) the best thing to do is do nothing until you do know what is wrong.


EDIT: Got ninja'd by someone who knows much more about the medication, so I'll leave it at that. Good luck!

 

[Wildgreen]

Well no, because my advise was that you are doing too much.

I did read all your posts, I'm aware of the situation, and I understand the frustration.
I'm sure I could have written it down more tactfully, for which apologies.


The way I see it, no one knows what's wrong with your axolotl - and yet you continued to do treatments.
You just stopped with the baytril (after two weeks), which is quite heavy, and you have been doing hydrogen peroxide "for the last couple of days". From your post history, sometime in the last month you have fridged her and another time you have done salt baths.

Each of those costs her energy and strength, right?
Axolotls can lose appetite for a few days after salt baths or fridging (and surely after heavier treatments as well) - they need time to recuperate after a treatment.
Every skin treatment also makes their skin very vulnerable, so they need time to regrow their strength.

Fungus growing back immediately after a salt bath, hydrogen peroxide is very common - because it makes their skin more vulnerable.
Ideally, they remove a very large fungus growth, and then the axolotl has enough strength on her own to fight the new fungus that starts to grow.
If you immediately do another treatment when you see the new fungus, you only reset the status quo every time.



What I'm saying is that since no one knows what is wrong with the axolotl (vet included, me included - seemingly everyone on the internet included) the best thing to do is do nothing until you do know what is wrong.


EDIT: Got ninja'd by someone who knows much more about the medication, so I'll leave it at that. Good luck!

sorry the treatment list isnt clear, the meth blue and baytril, antibiotics have all been baths or in a 10 gal not cycled tank (with daily water changes).

the salt i have been using at various doses in her regular water, not as a bath (my understanding like you said is those are harsh for their skin so ive been hesitant vs lower concentration in her regular water). ive been using about 1 tbsp per 2 gallons most recently (maybe a little less since id rather under dose it with water changes now shes in a cycled tank)

i dont want to do nothing though (that is what i mainly did when she was fridged, left her alone i was buying time till i saw the vet the first time, didnt seem to help or make her worse). if i did nothing she wouldnt have any toes or possibly even feet left, i need to at least keep removing that, unfortunately. ive tried leaving her be for a day or 2 but it really accumulates quick. heres a photo my mom sent this morning, after cleaning her feet up last night...its already grown back on 2 toes.

 

[SkunksandSals]

Sorry didnt mean to interrupt. I just have dealt with my share of rescues and lots of medications and have a microscope. I do agree that we're treating too much here, but can see how frustrating it would be as medical treatment is gatekept within this community.

Metroplex by seachem
Furan 2
Holtfreter's (at 100%) which is made with 1 gal water plus4 tsp cacl2, 1.5 cups sodium chloride, 1.5 tsp kacl, 3tbs epsom salt and used at a concentration of 1 cup per 5 gal normal and under 2.5 cups to deal with illnesses.
And methylene blue at 6-8 drops per gal

Changed 100% a day in a cool (65° would be good) tub for 5 days. Then if you dont see results tell your vet to prescribe cipro eyedrops.

 

[SkunksandSals]

After seeing the feet. Yes get the ciprofloxacin and be very careful to wash your hands and be sterile.

 

[SkunksandSals]

After seeing the feet. Yes get the ciprofloxacin and be very careful to wash your hands and be sterile.

Also she shouldnt be in the tank right now she should be tubbed. Im not saying your tank isnt cycled but anywhere she poops protozoa lurks

 

[SkunksandSals]

Treatment of Chytridiomycosis in Laboratory Axolotls (Ambystoma mexicanum) and Rough-skinned Newts (Taricha granulosa)

Chytridiomycosis is an infectious disease of amphibians caused by the fungal species Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis and B. salamandrivorans and has been implicated in the population decline of amphibian species worldwide. This case report describes a ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Wildgreen]

Also she shouldnt be in the tank right now she should be tubbed. Im not saying your tank isnt cycled but anywhere she poops protozoa lurks

will i need to tear down the whole tank/sterilize it?

 

[Wildgreen]

Sorry didnt mean to interrupt. I just have dealt with my share of rescues and lots of medications and have a microscope. I do agree that we're treating too much here, but can see how frustrating it would be as medical treatment is gatekept within this community.

Metroplex by seachem
Furan 2
Holtfreter's (at 100%) which is made with 1 gal water plus4 tsp cacl2, 1.5 cups sodium chloride, 1.5 tsp kacl, 3tbs epsom salt and used at a concentration of 1 cup per 5 gal normal and under 2.5 cups to deal with illnesses.
And methylene blue at 6-8 drops per gal

Changed 100% a day in a cool (65° would be good) tub for 5 days. Then if you dont see results tell your vet to prescribe cipro eyedrops.

also if i need to sterilize the tank whats the best way? in the past ive done hydrogen peroxide or bleach... but if i just treated her in the tank, wouldn't that also treat the tank/water itself too? not trying to argue just want to understand completely what i need to do!

changing 100% of the water each day is going to be different than the med instructions (like furan i know has directions of change 25% of the water on day 2 or something and adding the packets for treatment) so would i just change 100% of her water, and just keep treating like its "day 1" and just add 1 packet per 10gal? (that's what i did previously when i used it in aug)

I'm waiting for salts to come, just ordered them last night should be here in less than a week. will need to get metroplex too, havent tried that before so i hope it will work ! ill send this to my vet too, see what she thinks of the cipro idea.

thank you everyone i know i was a bit rude and frustrated but this whole thing with her is really driving me nuts! i will keep posting updates too, hopefully good ones.

 

[Wildgreen]

Treatment of Chytridiomycosis in Laboratory Axolotls (Ambystoma mexicanum) and Rough-skinned Newts (Taricha granulosa)

Chytridiomycosis is an infectious disease of amphibians caused by the fungal species Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis and B. salamandrivorans and has been implicated in the population decline of amphibian species worldwide. This case report describes a ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

this talks about using Itraconazole? is that similar to cipro or metroplex?

 

[SkunksandSals]

Metroplex is simular. Its metronidazole

 

[SkunksandSals]

I wouldnt tear down the tank unless you feel its what you want to do. Then id do 1 part bleach per 16 parts water on a rag then wipe out with vinegar and water. If i was you id treat the tank with just an antibiotic thats broad spectrum but low dose like api general cure and risk crashing my cycle verses a complete tear down.

 

[SkunksandSals]

Change 100% and treat for a minimum of 5 days max of 7.

 

[Wildgreen]

I wouldnt tear down the tank unless you feel its what you want to do. Then id do 1 part bleach per 16 parts water on a rag then wipe out with vinegar and water. If i was you id treat the tank with just an antibiotic thats broad spectrum but low dose like api general cure and risk crashing my cycle verses a complete tear down.

i thought general cure was mainly for parasites, not an actual antibiotic?