Question: Spotted Salamander egg/larva temperature

[kelbytaylor]

Hello! Long time reader, first time poster. I was able to save a cluster of spotted salamander eggs from a drainage pond that is going to be emptied due to construction any day now. I've been doing a ton of reading (this thread was very helpful: Spotted Salamander Eggs/Larvae Questions!), but I am uncertain what temperature I should be keeping the water at.

Currently they are in an unheated basement room at about 50 degrees F, I have another room that's about 60F and the rest of the house is about 70F. They are in a plastic tub with a bubbler and some plants at the moment, I've been doing water changes pretty often.

Thanks!

 

[Willithebigdoghunter]

please find another Vernel pool and release them immediately. The ones you have already bonding with beneficial, algae and bacteria in the pond. You keeping it will not be good. you’re removing a substantial population from the wild

 

[frank beard]

Please don't release these salamanders anywhere else. It is often illegal and even when it is not, it is not a good idea from a natural selection/population genetics standpoint. Sometimes spotted salamanders choose poor places to deposit their eggs, places where it is a poor choice even without the interference of humans draining a pond. Not all of the eggs masses will hatch, not all of the larvae will morph, that is the natural way. In parts of the range where they breed in the same pools with other Ambystoma species, research has shown that many populations will not recruit a single individual spotted salamander for 10 or more years. Spotted salamanders tend to breed later than the other Ambystoma species and every larvae gets eaten by marbled salamanders and Jefferson salamanders most years. It is only when a cold, dry winter and spring knocks out the breeding effort of the other species that there is a reasonable chance of recruitment. The life history of this species is such that recruitment does not occur often and that is not a problem for the populations.

Any temperatures you have available are fine. At lower temps they develop more slowly. At many sites across their distribution the eggs are in icy water (and sometimes even beneath ice) while at more southern localities they obviously tend to experience less icy water than northern populations.

 

[Willithebigdoghunter]

Please don't release these salamanders anywhere else. It is often illegal and even when it is not, it is not a good idea from a natural selection/population genetics standpoint. Sometimes spotted salamanders choose poor places to deposit their eggs, places where it is a poor choice even without the interference of humans draining a pond. Not all of the eggs masses will hatch, not all of the larvae will morph, that is the natural way. In parts of the range where they breed in the same pools with other Ambystoma species, research has shown that many populations will not recruit a single individual spotted salamander for 10 or more years. Spotted salamanders tend to breed later than the other Ambystoma species and every larvae gets eaten by marbled salamanders and Jefferson salamanders most years. It is only when a cold, dry winter and spring knocks out the breeding effort of the other species that there is a reasonable chance of recruitment. The life history of this species is such that recruitment does not occur often and that is not a problem for the populations.

Any temperatures you have available are fine. At lower temps they develop more slowly. At many sites across their distribution the eggs are in icy water (and sometimes even beneath ice) while at more southern localities they obviously tend to experience less icy water than northern populations.

there 100% are pools near whatever construction site he's at. Spotted salamanders are genetically conditioned to return to the pool they are born out of to mate and breed again, if this is a mistake then there 100% are other pools near by. He's also way pass the limit of eggs he's allowed to collect in his state.

 

[frank beard]

These are good points (especially about staying within any collection limits). There is a huge difference with moving an egg mass a few hundred meters vs kilometers. Even so it still is not generally a good idea to move egg masses like that. If there are genes involved in poor egg site/breeding site selection they could be inadvertently increased in the population vs. being selected against.

 

[Willithebigdoghunter]

These are good points (especially about staying within any collection limits). There is a huge difference with moving an egg mass a few hundred meters vs kilometers. Even so it still is not generally a good idea to move egg masses like that. If there are genes involved in poor egg site/breeding site selection they could be inadvertently increased in the population vs. being selected against.

also, he most likely have no clue how to raise larvaes. Which from this point can only going 2 ways. 1 he enjoys it have a lot of space. then he'll have to deal with all the full grown sals, releasing prolly isnt an option. option 2 you already know

 

[Skdecoteau]

Hello! Long time reader, first time poster. I was able to save a cluster of spotted salamander eggs from a drainage pond that is going to be emptied due to construction any day now. I've been doing a ton of reading (this thread was very helpful: Spotted Salamander Eggs/Larvae Questions!), but I am uncertain what temperature I should be keeping the water at.

Currently they are in an unheated basement room at about 50 degrees F, I have another room that's about 60F and the rest of the house is about 70F. They are in a plastic tub with a bubbler and some plants at the moment, I've been doing water changes pretty often.

Thanks!

Everyone has made some good points on this thread so far. I have no leg to stand on as I, too, am guilty of having a heart and probably interfering with the natural order of things as a result. However, if that pool is about to be wrecked then I really don't see how it's the fault of the parent salamanders and I don't blame you for wanting to save them.

At the risk of being roasted by other posters on this thread, I rescued a small clutch of yellow spotted salamander eggs two years ago after witnessing someone's dog trample through a woodland pool and crush a bunch of them. I then decided to hatch them out before returning them to the pool (which I did as soon as they hatched). I didn't do half of what you're doing for the ones you rescued, yet 95% of them hatched and were perfectly healthy. (It's expected that not all of them will hatch.)

The vernal/woodland pools in my area are in deep shade, where the daytime temps never really get above 60° until mid-May. So, if the eggs in your clutch are developing at 50° then I think you're doing fine. Like others have said, they'll develop more slowly at cooler temps and more quickly at warmer ones. I kept mine at around 60°.

It is important to note that spotted salamanders don't do well in higher temps in general at any life stage. I think their max is like 75° or so? Either way, it will take a few weeks for them to hatch so don't worry if it takes a little while. It's cool to watch as they develop from little black dots into little black commas, then wiggly little black commas, lol.

The only thing I'm not sure about is the bubbler. I can't explain why but it doesn't feel like a great idea, if that makes sense? Maybe because vernal pools do not have flowing water. Or, rather, they have an inlet but not an outlet, so there's not much of a current. I wonder if the bubbler would disturb the clutch in any way as a result.

Also, there's a type of green algae that should develop with the eggs that is important for them and I'm concerned that the bubbler might interfere with that.

Thank you for caring enough to try to save them. Most people don't notice or care.

Edit to add: here's a thread that I found extremely helpful: Spotted Salamander Eggs/Larvae Questions!