View Full Version : Salamandra salamandra alfredschmidti

20th November 2005, 19:13
Some photographs of a "classical", the Tendi valley from the mountains in Asturias


20th November 2005, 20:19
wonderful place ruben, and beautiful photos!
but isn't the first specimen (and the last one) a bit on the skinny side?is this normal in the wild?


20th November 2005, 22:04
Hi Leo

It was surprising for me too, seeing those skinny salamanders. The photos were taken at the end of the ( hard ) summer... and the animals were males, this is all I can say http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/sick.gif

1st December 2005, 10:40
Hi Ruben,

I have the same observation. I visited this region four times (april, july) and the number of skinny looking adults was always remarkable.

2nd December 2005, 08:23
Hi Frank

yes, would be interesting inquire why, don't you think? personally I cannot find a clear reason: It's not breeding time, and salamanders are completely active. Then, there is no drought period; the weather is warm and rainy the whole year ( 1.400-1.700 mm./year )

I think is interesting because in bernardezi populations, close to those ones, males were always pretty fat individuals...

17th January 2006, 17:50
Hi Rubén,
I'm new in the forum.
I agree, they are wonderful animals (and photos). But, I've got a question, please: Which is the current validity of Salamandra salamandra alfredschmidti as a true subspecies and where is it published?
I've got the Lissamphibia Volume of Fauna Iberica and this name is not recognized.

Thank you

17th January 2006, 23:51
Hi Miguel,
untill now alfredschmidti is not a valid subspecies of Salamandra salamandra!

Herr Dr. Koehler and Sebastian Steinfartz described the tendi- and la marea bernardezis as alfredschmidti but as their paper is not published yet they are still common bernardezis.

As far as i know they are going to publish their paper in february.

With kind regards, Stefan

18th January 2006, 07:28
You are all right. The name has already slipped out, which is odd and not very decent according to the taxonomical guidelines. And even then we still have to wait if their proposal is well supported with evidence! But both being experienced scientists they will probably have done enough research to support it.

18th January 2006, 12:09
Thank you for your answers.
I'll wait eager for the paper http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/happy.gif

18th January 2006, 13:18
Hi Miguel ( and welcome )

this thread of alfredschmidti seems to be clarified finally: Koehler and Steinfartz were using this name the last year, but then... in Spain you can't find herpetologist that support this, as Sergé had said. Íńigo Martínez Solano, Mario García Paris, Jaime Bosch and Miguel Lizana doesn't use it.

Miguel Lizana told me that many other populations of bernardezi have similar mitochondrial profiles than "alfredschmidti", and, of course, colour pattern is not a valid argument to become a new subspecies.

Anyway, if you are interested, you can take a look here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Taxonomy/Browser/wwwtax.cgi?mode=Info&id=333711&lvl=3&lin=f&keep=1& srchmode=1&unlock

Sometimes the enthusiasm of a new discovered subspecies can be too seductive...

(Message edited by Iberian_guest on January 18, 2006)

18th January 2006, 13:38
talking of doubtful subspecies status, what do you people know of werneri, beschkovi and hispanica?

18th January 2006, 15:21
Muchas gracias Rubén,

I copied the "alfredschmidti" sequence from genbank and after I did a blast search. Sequences from alfredschmidti and bernardezi are both very similar, but I don't know how much variable this molecular marker is (actually, I work with plants). I just printed the Koehler and Steinfartz Molecular Ecology 9 paper, I'll try to read it this evening and compare with that of Mario García et al. about viviparity.
Serge's Pleurodeles paper (that I casually printed this morning) is left for tomorrow ;)

19th January 2006, 13:47
There is still a lot of nice work to be done on northern spanish salamandra populations.

And personally I really don't like a german name for a spanish subspecies of salamandra, but I look forward to see the explanation Steinfartz and Köhler give.

Hispanica and beschovi are doubtful subspecies, werneri seems to be valid. But there is too little research done on the Balkans. But as seen in Steinfartz et al 2000 paper genetically even morphological distinct gallaica, terrestris, fastuosa and salamandra are not easy to separate.

24th March 2006, 21:10
Hello all,

the explanation is:

"Derivatio nominis: Die wissenschaftliche Laufbahn beider Autoren wurde maßgeblich durch die Deutsche Gesellschafte für Herpetologie und Terrarienkunde (DGHT), die in einer einmaligen Weise Amateur- und professionelle Herpetologen verschiedener Generationen zusammenführt, initiiert und beeinflusst. Das Ehrenmitglied Alfred A. Schmidt, Frankfurt am Main, verkörpert diese Tradition der DGHT auf eine besondere Weise. Es ist uns deshalb eine Freude, diese Unterart des Feuersalamanders unserem Freund und dem Ehrenmitglied der DGHT Alfred A. Schmidt, Frankfurt am Main, in Anerkennung seiner Verdienste um die Förderung der Herpetologie und Terrarienkunde in Deutschland zu widmen."

My translation-try:

Derivatio nominis: The academic career of both authors was influenced applicable and initiated by the German....??? (DGHT), which connects amateur- and professional herpetologists of different generations in a unique kind. The honorary member Alfred A. Schmidt, Frankfurt / Main, embodies this tradition of the DGHT in a special way. Because of that it is a pleasure for us to dedicate this subspecies of the fire-salamander to our Friend and the honorary member of the DGHT Alfred A. Schmidt, Frankfurt / Main, in approval of his sterling service for the encouragement of herpetology and "terrarienkunde" (terraria-lore???) in Germany.

I hope you can understand this! http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/happy.gif

27th March 2006, 07:19
DGHT = German Herptological and Herpetoculture Society (terrarienkunde = herpetoculture or the keeping of reptiles and amphibians in terrarium)

Still, I was rather disappointed by the description as it is rather 'thin' , with little self research (many data refer to data collected Frank Pasmans and Heinz Keller) and little context about the position of bernardezi/alfredschmidti in the surrounding Salamandra's.

27th March 2006, 20:25
yeah I agree with you Serge and there's little on the mitochondrial DNA analysis as well...

31st March 2006, 16:06
Hi, could you tell me where the description has been published? Thanks

31st March 2006, 17:10
"Gunther Köhler & Sebastian Steinfartz (2006): A new subspecies of the fire salamander, Salmandra salamandra (Linneaus, 1758) from the Tendi valley, Asturias, Spain. - Salamandra, Rheinbach, 42(1): 13-20"

Best Greetings,


28th April 2006, 16:39
Thank you very much, kamil. I'll try to find it, although my university has not the review.

28th April 2006, 17:25
Hi Miguel,

wrote you just an e-mail about that...

Best Greetings,