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mark
22nd April 2005, 00:12
Can anyone tell me the average size of adult fastuosa subspecies? I have come to understand that various subspecies have different adult sizes, but have failed to find a good breakdown for each...
I currently have two that are about 4.5 in. long and a smaller juvenile that I got earlier that is around 3.5 inches.
Also, do salamandra have a slow growth rate - how long would you expect one to reach full size?

jeff
22nd April 2005, 02:33
According to my <u>Amphibians in Captivity</u> book, the average size of adult S.s. fastuosa is around 12-14 cm (approx. 4.5-5.5 inches). Also, they are less tolerant to temperatures above 68 degrees, as they are a mountain subspecies.

How long have a had them, Mark?

mark
22nd April 2005, 15:51
Thanks for the info.
I just got the 2 larger ones a week ago...perhaps they are adults then (4.5 inches). The smaller one I have had about 5 months. I make sure to keep the temperatures low enough.
I am very surprised that they adults would not exceed 5.5 inches average...I know subspecies can vary in size but its incredible that s.s.salamandra can apparently reach 12 inches, but s.s.fastuosa does not even reach half that size?! Is that about the smallest of the subspecies then?

jeff
22nd April 2005, 17:46
I believe it is the smallest subspecies. The next smallest is S.s. almanzoris, which, on average, are only one cm bigger than fastuosa. Interestingly, they're both from Spain.

sergé
25th April 2005, 07:14
They are certainly not the smallest subspecies (up to 17 cm as far as I have seen myself) and they are not a complete mountian species, they are also found in lowland area's of northern Spain and southern France. It all depends on where they animals come from originally. But sadly no-one seems to take notice of that. So, no sure answer to your question. On average it takes 4 years (to my experiecne) before Salamandra start reproducing.

rubén
25th April 2005, 10:15
You are right Sergé

Salamandra s. fastuosa is an eurosiberian subspecies, and occurs mainly beech forests in northern Spain, but is not strictly a mountain species because is frequent at the sea level in the Cantabrian coast.

Regarding his size ( 12/16 cm ), is bigger than S. s. almanzoris, but not than bejarae or gallaica ( 20/25 cm ).

In general, extreme conditions doesn't favor to reach a big size, as we can see in some "dwarfed" populations of S. s. almanzoris at 2.400 m of altitude ( with terrible oscillations of temperature ) but this is not a law: In Pyrenees mountains are not strange S. s. fastuosa with 20 cm of size.

jeff
25th April 2005, 18:36
The book was published in 1995. Perhaps it's a bit outdated in regards to fastuosa.

Ruben, in regards to fastuosa being 20 cm in size in the Pyrenees- that's interesting to hear because the Pyrenees is the location specifically mentioned in the book.

rubén
25th April 2005, 23:32
Jeff

I'm sure your book contains good and correct information. But only happen that information about local variations ( in colour, morphology... ) is difficult to find in general books of amphibians.

sergé
26th April 2005, 07:15
I agree with Rubén, for such questions the book is far too general. If you are really interested in Salamandra there are very good books on just this group (but mainly in german). Recently one came out in german by Burkhard Thiesmeier (see www.laurenti.de (http://www.laurenti.de)). It is called Die Feuersalamander.

jeff
26th April 2005, 16:15
Do you know any great books on salamandra in English or Spanish? Otherwise I'll need a German interpreter to read me a bedtime storyhttp://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/lol.gif!

sergé
27th April 2005, 07:18
Sadly, no...but come to think of it...there could be a huge market, perhaps I should do it myself..http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/lol.gif

rubén
27th April 2005, 07:41
Yes, unfortunately all those references that I told you comes from the observation in the wild... http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/sick.gif

But here you have an excellent pdf document about the taxonomic status of Salamandra in Spain:

http://ib.berkeley.edu/labs/wake/2003_Evolution_Salamandra.pdf

jeff
28th April 2005, 17:16
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>Sergé Bogaerts wrote on Wednesday, 27 April, 2005 - 08:18 : (#POST53237)</font>

&quot;Sadly, no...but come to think of it...there could be a huge market, perhaps I should do it myself..&quot;<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Do you mean writing a book in english, or reading people bedtime storieshttp://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/biggrin.gif!

Ruben- Thanks for the link. I'll definitely be reading this.

sergé
2nd May 2005, 07:08
Well, don't know yet, what pays the best do you think?http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/lol.gif

jeff
3rd May 2005, 23:21
I'm not sure, maybe you could do bothhttp://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/biggrin.gif. Say, how are fastuosa and bernardezi differentiated between the two subspecies? I know that both are viviparous, and I've seen some bernardezi that look exactly like fastuosa. Are they really that different that they need to be categorized as different subspecies? How are they different?

bernardino
4th May 2005, 00:03
Hello!
The same spanish book that talks about the triturus species changes, says that the hole iberian salamandra salamandra subspecies are now being studied because it seems that there are only 4 real subspecies in this area.
Best regards
dino

sergé
4th May 2005, 06:15
Well, the funny thing is that on the genetical level bernardezi and fastuosa are truly different, in their coloration they resemble a lot. But bernardezi is more finer build (to my opinion). Besides that, fastuosa is 99% of the times laying larvaes like many other Salamandra's. But...there are of course area's where they meet and probably mix as well.

rubén
7th May 2005, 10:11
I think bernardezi is ( in general ) smaller than fastuosa, but not too much. On the other hand, bernardezi looks more robust salamander many times.

By the way... this weekend I saw a lot of fastuosas in a forest located at 200 m. of altitude. Probably can be found at lower altitude.

mark
10th May 2005, 15:43
Ruben,

How large were the fastuosa that you found this weekend? Were they adults?
Are they a commons subspecies to find?

rubén
16th May 2005, 15:10
Hi Mark

Well, the S. s. fastuosa population which I have seen were middle build animals; I think around 12/16 cm.

I found it in an oak forest ( Quercus robur/Quercus petraea ) near from the coast and, to my opinion, it's a common subspecies to find.

I will post pics soon.

mark
16th May 2005, 15:53
Great! look forward to seeing them

jeff
16th August 2005, 16:08
Hey Mark, how are your S.s. fastuosa doing? Any problems combating the summer heat?

mark
18th August 2005, 01:14
Hi Jeff,
Thanks for asking. The fastuosa are doing just fine. I keep the air conditioning going all day (even though I'm only home less than half the day!). Its usually between 68-73 degrees.
They do seem to be a little more secretive lately. Maybe its the more hours of sunlight. One of these days I'll post some pics of all three, I have a whole bunch of pictures laying around somewhere...

jeff
29th September 2005, 19:55
Mark,

Where are those pictures? I'd love to see them.