A.andersoni and worms

[xxianxx]

I was looking at German and Swiss axolotl sites and found that there is a wide spread belief that A.andersoni can be morphed by an earthworm diet, I lost the German link which stated that "thyroxin" (or something like spelt like that) was present in earthworms and can increase morphing rates. I am surprised that this information , even if it is opinion rather than fact is not on this site. Has anybody comments on this theory ? http://translate.google.co.uk/trans...a=X&ei=B_-8UP_MCsWV0QWT2oGgCw&ved=0CEEQ7gEwAA Thats a link to the Swiss site, the lady in charge of the site supplied me four very nice adult/sub adult A.andersoni earlier this year.

 

[Sean90]

Hey Ian
The andersoni at the zoo I have seen are being fed on worms. The show tank has five adults and they're still fully aquatic.
Sean

 

[xxianxx]

Hey Ian
The andersoni at the zoo I have seen are being fed on worms. The show tank has five adults and they're still fully aquatic.
Sean

Earthworms are linked to juvy morphing (at least according to the German sites). Once adult they can safetly be fed worms as the dont morph once sexual maturity has kicked in . I did contact Chester zoo directly and the head keeper on this site to ask about morphing rates and their breeding program but have received no response to date, they must be awating a delivery of common courtesy.

 

[LeFarge]

what would you feed them instead?

 

[Sean90]

Snails ?

 

[xxianxx]

what would you feed them instead?

Low protein pellest are recomended by the German forums, the breeder who sent me mine also suggested freshwater fish such as trout as an additional food source, mine love that.

 

[LeFarge]

chopped up trout?

 

[esn]

Odd! My instinct would be that andersoni are more likely to morph on a pellet diet, as most pellets contain iodine which has been linked to axolotl morphing. That was my guess on all the andersoni morphs, as every one I've heard of having morphs have used pellets. I've always fed my andersoni Canadian nightcrawlers, since I got them at about 6 inches. No pellets at all. I tried and failed to feed tilapia, but their entire diet was earthworms, white cloud minnows, and maybe some snails that snuck in.

 

[jewett]

Ian
Thyroxin is levothyroxin - a thyroid hormone supplement used to treat hypothyroidism. It would make sense that a diet rich in levothyroxin would cause metamorphing. If I recall Stebbins amphibian book discusses levothyroxin inducing/ being needed to induce morphing.
Heather

 

[MarioR]

Low protein pellest are recomended by the German forums, the breeder who sent me mine also suggested freshwater fish such as trout as an additional food source, mine love that.

Hey there,

we in Germany had many problems with morphing andersoni. At first we couldn't explain how and why.
Someone supposed, that the "ring"(what's the correct word?) worms have cause metamorphosis because it contain many hormones. After the breeders stopped feeding worms and reduced the diet overall metamorphosis wasn't a problem anymore.

We also got pellets especially produced for Axolotl and andersoni. The low protein pellets are without marine animal stuff but many Gammarus

Greetings,
Mario

 

[esn]

MarioR

Entschuldigen Sie bitte meine schlechten Deutschkenntnisse.

Gibt es Studien zu diesem Thema gemacht? Oder war die Veränderung auf der Grundlage guess?
Haben Sie entfernen die Würmer aus der Nahrung zur gleichen Zeit wie die Pellets wurden verändert?

I was hoping to make it easy to understand, but I only studied German a few years in high school and college. I'm sure it's bad. I'm the worst at tense changes in questions. Es tut mir leid.

I'm interested in whether or not studies were done. In other words, were studies conducted, or was the change in diet based on guess? And were the worms removed and changed to low protein pellets at the same time, or was there a gradual move from worms to normal pellets to low protein pellets? I'm wondering if the pellet change matches my previous theory, that marine matter was causing the change.

 

[MarioR]

Hey Elena,

you don't have to write german I understand english very well although I'm bad in grammar and tenses
Your german is understandable by the way

There are no studies about this topic but observations of various breeders from all over europe.
At first keepers stopped feeding worms on the andersoni and reduced their diet overall. This led to less metamorphs. The normal pellets seemed to be to rich in content so the seller of axolotlpellets produced a different "light" variant.
If you feed youngsters on pellets and let them grow up to 15-18cm in one year they won't morph normally. They grow slow but stay in water. Adults can be fed on everything, even worms. The most critical time is about the length of 15cm.
Feed them carefully, keep them cool and in a quiet place till they're adult and everything will be fine

Greetings,
Mario

 

[xxianxx]

chopped up trout?

I buy a trout, fillet and debone it, cut thin strips up and feed it to my A.andersoni and my A.mexicanum then eat the rest myself or put some in the freezer.

 

[xxianxx]

I was informed that frozen fish would be thiamine deficient, I will just be using fresh trout from now on. It is not a staple of my guys diet , they get it a couple times a month. Check Tescos it is half price regularly, I just buy it on special offer.

 

[oceanblue]

My first reaction on reading that people were suspecting worms were causing morphing in andersoni because they contain thyroxine was it must be something else, worms don't have thyroids!

But then I read this...

Evidence for the presence of thyroid stimulating hormone, thyroglobulin and their receptors in Eisenia fetida: a multilevel hormonal interface between the nervous system and the peripheral tissues

authors- Márta Wilhelm, Anna Koza, Péter Engelmann, Péter Németh, Mária Csoknya

Maybe those red wriggly compost worms are best avoided!

 

[xxianxx]

My first reaction on reading that people were suspecting worms were causing morphing in andersoni because they contain thyroxine was it must be something else, worms don't have thyroids!

But then I read this...

Evidence for the presence of thyroid stimulating hormone, thyroglobulin and their receptors in Eisenia fetida: a multilevel hormonal interface between the nervous system and the peripheral tissues

authors- Márta Wilhelm, Anna Koza, Péter Engelmann, Péter Németh, Mária Csoknya

Maybe those red wriggly compost worms are best avoided!

Thats a point I didnt consider, are all earth worms to be avoided or just certain species for juvenile andersoni?

 

[MarioR]

Most worms being fed on andersoni were Dendrobena, because thea can be bred very easy. Eisenia and Dendrobena are closely related so I guess both aren't safe.
After a short search about Lumbricus + Thyroglobulin I wasn't able to find anything useful. So eighter no one looked for Thyroglobulin in Lumbricus so far or they don't contain it.

 

[oceanblue]

Despite the possibility that various worms may contain iodinated proteins with thyroxine like properties I still wonder if it is the problem. These worms are fed to axolotls without problems so why are andersoni different?

I don't know any work on the suspected metabolic block to morphing in andersoni. It may be at a different site to the block in axolotls such as a defect in inorganic iodine concentration. Axolotls are not sensitive to inorganic iodine but andersoni might be.

It is hard to give any sensible advice in these circumstances. It seems some of the swiss lady's andersoni are morphing despite low protein pellets and being brought up in an area traditionally known for iodine deficiency in humans, so environmental iodine levels should be low.

I'm worried that andersoni may end up rather like some humans who think they have food allergy, with keepers avoiding nourishing foods thinking they will harm them.

I'd suggest avoiding iodised salt if making up any support solutions but not pass up on worms , especially if collected from soils in low iodine areas (including much of inland South Wales, especially the valleys).

 

[ZombieAxolotl]

I find this really crazy.

I have fed my A.Andersoni worms since they were juvenile.

I do not feed Eisenia fetida as they A: don't like them and B: aren't really big enough to well feed.
I DO feed African NightCrawlers Eudrilus Eugeniae though. They are large and i'm able to get a good meal out of one worm. The biggest plus though is that unlike a lot of other worm species, they do not emit (as much of) a foul tasting slime when you cut them up. They also don't almost immediatly drown in water like a lot of worm species.

I also do completely opposite of the German's apparently and feed a very high protein diet.

In addition to live foods of night crawlers, feeder fish, and black worms. I feed a pelleted fish diet as well.
Same diet I use for my A.Mexicanum.

I have had one of my Andersoni morph, never been fed fetida though.

 

[xxianxx]

I have been feeding two of my hybrid A.andersoni/A.mexicanum high protein pellets and worms to see if I can induce morphing, though as oceanblue said the area I live in (and source my worms from) has low iodine levels so my results may be different to those who live in an iodine rich area , plus it is a very small sample size.