Mixing frogs, newts, turtles and fish

[Tdoce64]

I have read the numerous articles on why not to mix the above and/or crayfish, shrimp etc… however it is generally in terms of an aquarium. It is my plan in the future to use an above ground swimming pool as a backyard pond. At least 18’ or so, so we are talking about 5-6,000 gallons. I plan on filling it with all kinds of rocks, logs, buildings, hideaways etc…. I haven’t figured out the temperature part yet, and mind you this is in the early stages and everything is open to change. Now worst case scenario I can section off parts of the pool with mesh but would prefer not to. I will have sections that come out of the water naturally, and protection from anything jumping out. I won’t over crowd it either. I’d like for some suggestions on how to make it work if you have any. Thx

 

[Autistic Catholic]

1. Be mindful of the species' needs. This is most important. Because you live in South Carolina, the species you have will more than likely need to be native to South Carolina.
2. Will the enclosure be escape proof?
3. Have you researched the laws of your state? Be mindful that certain species may be illegal or require you to have a permit to own.
4. Is this a bioactive pond? For instance, would you be particularly concerned about animals within this pond preying on each other? If it's not, then this will be a strong burden. Even if it is, you're going to want to have species that can reproduce efficiently and sufficiently enough to keep up with the demands of the mini ecosystem.

 

[Tdoce64]

1. Be mindful of the species' needs. This is most important. Because you live in South Carolina, the species you have will more than likely need to be native to South Carolina.
2. Will the enclosure be escape proof?
3. Have you researched the laws of your state? Be mindful that certain species may be illegal or require you to have a permit to own.
4. Is this a bioactive pond? For instance, would you be particularly concerned about animals within this pond preying on each other? If it's not, then this will be a strong burden. Even if it is, you're going to want to have species that can reproduce efficiently and sufficiently enough to keep up with the demands of the mini ecosystem.

I dont plan on buying anything illegal. And because i am concerned about the animals is why i posted in the first place. Would a pond / pool of that size with sufficient structures inside to reasonably expect they can co-exist (ie. unlike being trapped in a small tank together). If not i may either choose one species along with fish or go the route of basically netting the pool into separate "compartments", that would likely depend on how big the pool is and it gives an unattractive appearance. I know what you read, and i know what people do and sometimes people discover things not well known, or even work arounds. I was simply wondering if anyone had any experience and knowledge in something of this nature.

 

[Autistic Catholic]

I dont plan on buying anything illegal. And because i am concerned about the animals is why i posted in the first place. Would a pond / pool of that size with sufficient structures inside to reasonably expect they can co-exist (ie. unlike being trapped in a small tank together). If not i may either choose one species along with fish or go the route of basically netting the pool into separate "compartments", that would likely depend on how big the pool is and it gives an unattractive appearance. I know what you read, and i know what people do and sometimes people discover things not well known, or even work arounds. I was simply wondering if anyone had any experience and knowledge in something of this nature.

I know that turtles and frogs eat meat and would more than likely love to munch on a newt, a tadpole, or a fish. I don't think size would prevent that and having a predator could stress the animals.

As far as my own experience with outdoor enclosures, when I went to high school in Arizona, we had a desert tortoise in an outdoor enclosure, but that's all my experience. I've never done ponds.

 

[Tdoce64]

I know that turtles and frogs eat meat and would more than likely love to munch on a newt, a tadpole, or a fish. I don't think size would prevent that and having a predator could stress the animals.

As far as my own experience with outdoor enclosures, when I went to high school in Arizona, we had a desert tortoise in an outdoor enclosure, but that's all my experience. I've never done ponds.

Thx

 

[JM29]

Hello,
I'm not an expert but I recently went and visit a turtles/tortoises refugium in southern France.
Here's what I was taught and saw :

Some turtles, liken Graptemys, Chrysemys, Trachemys,... are very good swimmers and efficient predators for fishes and Amphibians. Other species (Kinosternidae) are bottom dwellers and usually stay in shallow zones.

Fishes are a huge threat for Amphibians larvae, either for direct predation, or for plant destruction (carps...).

Some frogs managed to live along with turtles and fishes in large enclosures (30 feet x 30 feet, most of it being in water).

There is a pond devoid of turtles and fishes where palmate newts , marbled newts and frogs thrive. However, in the largest enclosures built for terrestrial tortoises, with a shallow pond full of aquatic plants where tortoises can drink and bath without drowning risks, newts (especially palmate newt) thrive well.

A pond will also harbour diverse insect larvae, some of them being interesting preys, other (Dytiscus, dragonfly) being predators, but they don't seem to threat Amphibians populations.

As a conclusion, I think it is possible to chose a turtle species which will not be a very efficient predator for Amphibians. Fishes remain problematic for Amphibians larvae.
If many turtles live in the pond, the water will become green and no more transparent. Turtles are mainly carnivorous and need to be fed with animal source food, so avoid turtle overcrowding.

 

[Tdoce64]

Thx for the reply. It is not my intention of overcrowding the enclosure. Im not overly concerned if they dont multiply (i know eggs, and tadpoles, etc... are fair game for whomever). You kind of touched on what i was looking for, if i can find the right species, keep them well fed, and make the enclosure properly (with hiding spots etc...) Im thinking it can be done. It happens naturally at peoples outdoor ponds, although we are sensitive and dont want to intentionally put them in any bad situations. This is why im doing alot of research ahead of time. I am looking at some small koi, pretty much everything i read state that the koi wont be the problem (except for eggs and tadpoles), its the turtles and frogs and newts amongst themselves. Thx for the info

 

[Idnar196]

I would be concerned for introduced species escaping or bringing infections to native populations.
Honestly I would probably stock it with native fish like the eastern mosquitofish and possibly koi, then leave it open to the environment, similar to a butterfly garden.
If the conditions are ideal native species of frogs, newts, salamanders, and turtles will move in on their own.
That way when they inevitably eat one another it is just a continuation of the natural life cycle and local environment.

 

[Tdoce64]

I would be concerned for introduced species escaping or bringing infections to native populations.
Honestly I would probably stock it with native fish like the eastern mosquitofish and possibly koi, then leave it open to the environment, similar to a butterfly garden.
If the conditions are ideal native species of frogs, newts, salamanders, and turtles will move in on their own.
That way when they inevitably eat one another it is just a continuation of the natural life cycle and local environment.

My pond will be in an above ground pool, there will be nothing native about it. I likely wont mix but one species with the koi, i am simply inspecting options and asking for ideas and feedback and personal stories.

 

[Idnar196]

My pond will be in an above ground pool, there will be nothing native about it. I likely wont mix but one species with the koi, i am simply inspecting options and asking for ideas and feedback and personal stories.

Okay. Then I would not absolutely not include any newts, frogs or salamanders. They are masters of escape and native populations can be put in danger if non native species escape into the environment.
I would read on the dangers of fungal infections to amphibian wildlife.
This article shows ways to contain newts: Caudata Culture Articles - Preventing Escape
This level of security would be near impossible to maintain on a larger outdoor pool without destroying the visual appeal.

Turtles and fish are easy enough to contain and you should have no problem finding compatible species.

 

[Tdoce64]

Okay. Then I would not absolutely not include any newts, frogs or salamanders. They are masters of escape and native populations can be put in danger if non native species escape into the environment.
I would read on the dangers of fungal infections to amphibian wildlife.
This article shows ways to contain newts: Caudata Culture Articles - Preventing Escape
This level of security would be near impossible to maintain on a larger outdoor pool without destroying the visual appeal.

Turtles and fish are easy enough to contain and you should have no problem finding compatible species.

That’s likely the plan but I plan on having a four foot deep pool with a sort of edging around the outside, only 3 feet of water and no land mass near the edges

 

[Idnar196]

That’s likely the plan but I plan on having a four foot deep pool with a sort of edging around the outside, only 3 feet of water and no land mass near the edges

If you haven't had amphibians before, they can climb straight out of the water up glass and fit through very small openings.
Commercial fish tank hoods often don't contain them, and I had to seal up every edge on my juvenile clawed frog tank because I was unable to even see how they were getting out and onto the floor.
The only way that you could contain them would be with a fell fitted lid, which seems both impractical and unattractive.

 

[Tdoce64]

If you haven't had amphibians before, they can climb straight out of the water up glass and fit through very small openings.
Commercial fish tank hoods often don't contain them, and I had to seal up every edge on my juvenile clawed frog tank because I was unable to even see how they were getting out and onto the floor.
The only way that you could contain them would be with a fell fitted lid, which seems both impractical and unattractive.

It definitely would be a challenge