Gill Deterioration

rflection

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Hi all! I've been reaching out for help on other platforms, but I wanted to get a second opinion here as well. I've had my axolotl since he (sex unknown as of right now) was 3.5 inches and now he's a whopping 9 inches! While his tank was cycling, he was tubbed for the last 4 months or so and was doing well.

The tank had finished cycling last week ish in which I did multiple 50% daily water changes to get the nitrates down from 80-100ppm to 20ppm. After that, I acclimated him to his tank and things seemed to be going well; he was eating the first two days and had no visible signs of stress (no curled gills, hooked tail, etc). However, after day 3 of being in the tank, his gills started showing signs of deterioration and were white at the back. At this time, he also started to not eat (he started running away from his food). I chalked it up to stress over the new environment, so I let him vibe for a few more days. The nitrates were also a bit on the higher side of the tolerable threshold, so I did a few more water changes to get the nitrates down to 5-10ppm.

After this, I saw no visible improvement in his gills, nor any further signs of deterioration(?) though I could be wrong. I tried feed him blood worms just to see if he would eat and he did, so it might just be picky eating. He is currently tubbed right now. Could it be fungus or a mucus stress response? Any guidance would be appreciated!

Tank Parameters:

Temperature: 63-65°F

PH: 8.0ppm
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm

Nitrate: 5-10ppm

GH: 9° 140-200ppm

KH: 6° 50-100ppm
 

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ensure good/adequate water oxygenation, although you have a sponge filter installed the bubbles produced tend to be large which only provide minimal water oxygenation via dissolving.
ensure the sand is turned over regularly, do routine checks on plant roots to prevent rot.
what is the ph of your tap water?
apart from loss of appetite and deteriorated gill filaments has there been any other unusual behaviour ie.. surface gulping, panic swimming etc..
 
ensure good/adequate water oxygenation, although you have a sponge filter installed the bubbles produced tend to be large which only provide minimal water oxygenation via dissolving.
ensure the sand is turned over regularly, do routine checks on plant roots to prevent rot.
what is the ph of your tap water?
apart from loss of appetite and deteriorated gill filaments has there been any other unusual behaviour ie.. surface gulping, panic swimming etc..
Aside from lack of appetite and gills, he hasn’t done any of that either. He honestly doesn’t even seem that stressed despite everything. I have a sponge filter, a canister filter with a spray bar, and a bubbler (which I plan to get a stronger air pump for). Plants are okay. PH is 8.0ppm. Tried to get him to eat cut up earth worms last night and he ate two pieces. Night before he ate blood worms, but not as voraciously as usual.

I want to say my theory is that I am underdosing my tank when I water change which I just realized last night per Prime instructions. It says to dose tank entire tank volume when adding water straight to tank and I’ve only been adding as much for the water I take out with my python. With a high PH and despite not showing any other symptoms, could this be it?
 
dechlorinate the water before adding to the tank (only the additional water needs dechlorinating the water in the tank should contain zero chlorine/chloramines), unless the water is added to the tank before being dechlorinated there shouldn't be an issue.
ph 8 is the limit for axolotl tolerance, high ph will also increase the toxicity of any ammonia.
 
dechlorinate the water before adding to the tank (only the additional water needs dechlorinating the water in the tank should contain zero chlorine/chloramines), unless the water is added to the tank before being dechlorinated there shouldn't be an issue.
ph 8 is the limit for axolotl tolerance, high ph will also increase the toxicity of any ammonia.

I add the dechlorinator into the tank before I add the new water. The python refills my tank straight from the bathroom. When it comes to PH, is fluctuation worse for him? When he was tubbed the PH was also 8.0 and he seemed fine (but I guess that's also because of the 100% wcs).
 
adding chlorinated water straight to the tank can damage the biological cycle.
if you have no choice but to change the water this way make sure any external filters are switched off and remove any internal filters to reduce risk of damage to bacteria colony whilst water is being changed, prime will need to be dosed for the tank size rather than amount of water added, make sure the water is dispersed around the tank and settled before restarting filtration.
 
adding chlorinated water straight to the tank can damage the biological cycle.
if you have no choice but to change the water this way make sure any external filters are switched off and remove any internal filters to reduce risk of damage to bacteria colony whilst water is being changed, prime will need to be dosed for the tank size rather than amount of water added, make sure the water is dispersed around the tank and settled before restarting filtration.

Do you think that this may be the reason as to why his gills may be deteriorating otherwise? This is the only thing I can think of. I have only been dosing for half of the volume that I remove. On top of this, with the PH so high maybe that's why + the nitrates were on the higher side of tolerable as well when I put him in? My tap water also naturally has ammonia and nitrates in it as well. He has no ammonia burns and his slime coat is fine. I feel like this may be plausible then since I was dosing wrong ☹️
 
having chlorine in the water will affect his health and possibly cause him to reduce the gill filaments.
damage to the bacteria colony caused by chlorine in the water will cause spikes in ammonia and nitrites which will also affect his health and gills.
although ideally nitrates should be around 10ppm the tolerant range is up to 110ppm.
 
having chlorine in the water will affect his health and possibly cause him to reduce the gill filaments.
damage to the bacteria colony caused by chlorine in the water will cause spikes in ammonia and nitrites which will also affect his health and gills.
although ideally nitrates should be around 10ppm the tolerant range is up to 110ppm.
Hi update, my PH is actually around 7.6 I think? It’s hard to discern. I will attach a photo. Nitrates in tank right now is between 5-10ppm I think.
 

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once the ph test has reached it's limit (normal/low range is 6 - 7.6) test with high range test (high range is 7.4 - 8.8) to confirm.
 
once the ph test has reached it's limit (normal/low range is 6 - 7.6) test with high range test (high range is 7.4 - 8.8) to confirm.
This is high range from last test. Will test again later to double check, but here is the range we are working with. Slightly high, but not as high as 8.0
 

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Hi all! I've been reaching out for help on other platforms, but I wanted to get a second opinion here as well. I've had my axolotl since he (sex unknown as of right now) was 3.5 inches and now he's a whopping 9 inches! While his tank was cycling, he was tubbed for the last 4 months or so and was doing well.

The tank had finished cycling last week ish in which I did multiple 50% daily water changes to get the nitrates down from 80-100ppm to 20ppm. After that, I acclimated him to his tank and things seemed to be going well; he was eating the first two days and had no visible signs of stress (no curled gills, hooked tail, etc). However, after day 3 of being in the tank, his gills started showing signs of deterioration and were white at the back. At this time, he also started to not eat (he started running away from his food). I chalked it up to stress over the new environment, so I let him vibe for a few more days. The nitrates were also a bit on the higher side of the tolerable threshold, so I did a few more water changes to get the nitrates down to 5-10ppm.

After this, I saw no visible improvement in his gills, nor any further signs of deterioration(?) though I could be wrong. I tried feed him blood worms just to see if he would eat and he did, so it might just be picky eating. He is currently tubbed right now. Could it be fungus or a mucus stress response? Any guidance would be appreciated!

Tank Parameters:

Temperature: 63-65°F

PH: 8.0ppm
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm

Nitrate: 5-10ppm

GH: 9° 140-200ppm

KH: 6° 50-100ppm

Hi its good that you have an api freshwater master kit. you are mssing two very important parameters from your test. Those are ammonia and nitrite. Its essential that those are tests read zero or close to it. for nitrite we always want that one to be zero. If you have nitrite in your tank, this should be considered an emergency. A large water change is needed right way and a double or 5x dose of water conditioner should be used. Read the directions in the bottle.

It is only when ammonia and nitrate tests reads zero that your aqaurium has an established nitrogen cycle.

A brand new tank will also test zero on all important parameters pertaining to nitrogen cycling but that does not mean that its cycled. An aqaurium needs a minimum of 5 to 6 weeks to establish a nitrogen cycle. It must be inhabited with fish or other living animals during this entire time. Really 5 or 6 weeks is a very rough estimate at best. Depending on the size of your aqaurium a nitrogen cycle can take up to 6 months..

Fishless cycling is a myth that shouldnt be attempted by beginner or experienced aquarists.

Aqaurium cycling is a convoluted subject. How to "cycle" your tank is going to depend on what methods you choose.

For now, the best I can recommend for your axolotl is to do a large (75%) water change. Just be aware this will reduce its dissolved oxygen by a substantial amount. Its nothing it wasnt already used to by being kept In a tub for all that time.. I disagree with "tubbing" axoltols. Its plain bad advice being passed around by inexperienced aquarists and especially leaders within online axolotl communities. Its a bandaid solution at best which doesn't get to the root of the issue which is that your aquarium isn't cycled. Tubbing in fact can delay your cycle from establishing in your aquarium because you've removed the essential animal which is required to perpetuate the nitrogen cycle in the tank.
Without an animal in the tank the nitrogen process doesn't have the constant source of ammonia fuel to continue cycling..

Here's a couple videos to watch about nitrogen cycling. The aqaurium co-op thinks plants should be used but plants do not directly help to cycle an aquarium in that they do not deposit ammonia into the water column. They have a real preference for planted tanks in their community.. I get it. Plants look pretty and can help consume nitrate. They also provide oxygen into the water column which does help the niteogen cycle. But there other ways to add oxygen to an aqaurium such as water circulation and surface agitation. Plants do not really directly deposit ammonia into the water column like live animals do. Maybe a little bit of rotting plant matter will make some ammonia but not much as a big breathing and pooping axolotl which is excreting ammonia directly.

The bottom line is that plants are not required to cycle an aquarium. Live animals are required.



You must be careful To change 75% of water out of your axolotl aqaurium. The water must be perfectly temperature matched so as not to shock the axolotl.

You should use a python water changer hose and an infrared thermometer to keep the water temperature the same as what already in the tank. This practice is often described as temperature or temp matching.

Dose the tank with water conditioner before refilling if you live in an area with chlorinated tap water.

Goodluck I hope your axolotl recovers. It should stsrt healing and feeding if you fix its parameters. Based on what you've stated im nearly sure that is the cause of its issues.

Your tank looks very nicely setup. You have substrate and water circulation with filtration. These are all good things that help an aqaurium cycle.
 
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Hi its good that you have an api freshwater master kit. you are mssing two very important parameters from your test. Those are ammonia and nitrite. Its essential that those are tests read zero or close to it. for nitrite we always want that one to be zero. If you have nitrite in your tank, this should be considered an emergency. A large water change is needed right way and a double or 5x dose of water conditioner should be used. Read the directions in the bottle.

It is only when ammonia and nitrate tests reads zero that your aqaurium has an established nitrogen cycle.

A brand new tank will also test zero on all important parameters pertaining to nitrogen cycling but that does not mean that its cycled. An aqaurium needs a minimum of 5 to 6 weeks to establish a nitrogen cycle. It must be inhabited with fish or other living animals during this entire time. Really 5 or 6 weeks is a very rough estimate at best. Depending on the size of your aqaurium a nitrogen cycle can take up to 6 months..

Fishless cycling is a myth that shouldnt be attempted by beginner or experienced aquarists.

Aqaurium cycling is a convoluted subject. How to "cycle" your tank is going to depend on what methods you choose.

For now, the best I can recommend for your axolotl is to do a large (75%) water change. Just be aware this will reduce its dissolved oxygen by a substantial amount. Its nothing it wasnt already used to by being kept In a tub for all that time.. I disagree with "tubbing" axoltols. Its plain bad advice being passed around by inexperienced aquarists and especially leaders within online axolotl communities. Its a bandaid solution at best which doesn't get to the root of the issue which is that your aquarium isn't cycled. Tubbing in fact can delay your cycle from establishing in your aquarium because you've removed the essential animal which is required to perpetuate the nitrogen cycle in the tank.
Without an animal in the tank the nitrogen process doesn't have the constant source of ammonia fuel to continue cycling..

Here's a couple videos to watch about nitrogen cycling. The aqaurium co-op thinks plants should be used but plants do not directly help to cycle an aquarium in that they do not deposit ammonia into the water column. They have a real preference for planted tanks in their community.. I get it. Plants look pretty and can help consume nitrate. They also provide oxygen into the water column which does help the niteogen cycle. But there other ways to add oxygen to an aqaurium such as water circulation and surface agitation. Plants do not really directly deposit ammonia into the water column like live animals do. Maybe a little bit of rotting plant matter will make some ammonia but not much as a big breathing and pooping axolotl which is excreting ammonia directly.

The bottom line is that plants are not required to cycle an aquarium. Live animals are required.



You must be careful To change 75% of water out of your axolotl aqaurium. The water must be perfectly temperature matched so as not to shock the axolotl.

You should use a python water changer hose and an infrared thermometer to keep the water temperature the same as what already in the tank. This practice is often described as temperature or temp matching.

Dose the tank with water conditioner before refilling if you live in an area with chlorinated tap water.

Goodluck I hope your axolotl recovers. It should stsrt healing and feeding if you fix its parameters. Based on what you've stated im nearly sure that is the cause of its issues.
Hi! Thanks for the information, but if you read my post, all of my parameter readings are
underneath it. My ammonia and nitrite parameters are 0ppm, my nitrate is 10-20ppm, and my tank can successfully process 2.0ppm of ammonia in 24 hours.

My axolotl is tubbed and my tank has been cycling for over 5 months using Dr. Tim’s ammonia. Axolotls are sensitive to parameters and if I can see that something in my tank besides my parameters are irritating him/causing him to lose his gills, of course I’m going to tub him and remove him from a harmful situation while feeding the bacteria in my tank using Dr. Tim’s whilst I troubleshoot this problem.

I find it especially concerning how in your post it seems as if you are advocating for fish-in cycling. It is a known fact that doing so is extremely harmful especially with axolotls and the risks severely outweigh the benefits if any at all.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post and wishing my axolotl well, but I do think that some information was missed in your first read of my post.
 
Hi! Thanks for the information, but if you read my post, all of my parameter readings are
underneath it. My ammonia and nitrite parameters are 0ppm, my nitrate is 10-20ppm, and my tank can successfully process 2.0ppm of ammonia in 24 hours.

My axolotl is tubbed and my tank has been cycling for over 5 months using Dr. Tim’s ammonia. Axolotls are sensitive to parameters and if I can see that something in my tank besides my parameters are irritating him/causing him to lose his gills, of course I’m going to tub him and remove him from a harmful situation while feeding the bacteria in my tank using Dr. Tim’s whilst I troubleshoot this problem.

I find it especially concerning how in your post it seems as if you are advocating for fish-in cycling. It is a known fact that doing so is extremely harmful especially with axolotls and the risks severely outweigh the benefits if any at all.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post and wishing my axolotl well, but I do think that some information was missed in your first read of my post.
Dr tims ammonia is not the way to do it. Now I see it. I didn't notice that on the first read
Fish in cycling is a perfectly fine way to cycle an aquarium. In fact, if your tank isn't cycled, its the only proper way. Dr tims ammonia is a snake oil product.

Fish in cycling may not be the best for axolotls but its probably still better for them than the ridiculous practice of tubbing and then trying to cycle a tank with ammonia.
Cycling fish should be used as a substitute in the case where an axolotl owner is trying to cycle an uncycled tank. There are other ways too..

Anyway, I can come in here or fb groups and give people good advice about axolotls or tank cycling. It will be shot down by people who advocate the use of dr tims ammonia.. but i dont care.

Sometimes axolotls aren't hungry. Give it a day or two to become hungry and make sure the parameters are good. Feed it live earthworms or cut up live earthworms. If its still not eating than you have a sick axolotl.
 
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Dr tims ammonia is not the way to do it. Now I see it. I didn't notice that one the first read

You mention how Dr Tim’s isn’t the way to go, yet offer no alternative that does not involve putting my axolotl at risk if the cycle were the problem. Regardless of whether or not you believe it’s not the right way to go about it, it still establishes the colony of bacteria needed in the tank. We aren’t here to talk about the cycle as it doesn’t seem to be the problem from my parameters. If you are going to miss crucial information and recommend me something that I’m not particularly comfortable with that can cause extreme harm/stress to an axolotl, please do not offer me any further advice as it does not pertain to my problem. Have a great day.

To add on as I didn’t see your edit: He’s been eating quite a bit, but more so brine shrimp recently rather than worms (which he usually eats). You admit yourself that it may not be the best, but if my axolotl is already affected by something, why would I subject him to more stress when something in the tank was causing it? I do not think people want to shoot you down because of your methodology, but rather your approach. The way you comment makes it sound as if you look down upon others, especially when you call tubbing ridiculous or other ways despite others having success with these things.
 
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