A Plethodon from Thailand??? (Gray 1859)

[froggy]

I was reading through Gray's (absolutely useless) description of Paramesotriton chinensis and came across a second salamander described in the same publication. It is very short and reads as follows:

'PLETHODON PERSIMLIS:
Black, white-speckled, the specks closer and more abundant on the sides; the hind toes elongate, nequal. Tail compressed.
Habitat: Siam (=Thailand)
The only character that i can find between the two specimnes recieved from Siam, and some twenty more of Plethodon glutinosum [=P. glutinosus from different parts of the United States in the Museum collection is that the toes of the hind feet appeared rather longer, more slender and unequal in length, and the tail much more compressed'

There is a drawing of the specimen (diorama style) that I will scan later.

What on earth can these specimens represent? Are they mislabelled Plethodon from the US - the tail is laterally compressed, which is not the case for plethodontids....
Is it a Hynobiid - these could be confused with plethodontids by the casual glance Gray appears to have given the specimens? If so, it is very important as no hynobiid has been described from Thailand.

Any ideas?

 

[froggy]

Here is the picture; Paramesotriton chinensis (described as Cynops chinensis) and the 'Plethodon persimilis' bottom.
Incidentally it is a beautiful engraving.

 

[froggy]

If you click on the image so that it appears larger, then click again so that it opens in a webpage of its own, then click again (the mouse will look like a magnifying glass) you can see the details properly.

 

[John]

It does resemble a plethodon, somewhat. This is the newt equivalent of Nate Nelson's Sasquatch...

Actually on better reading (I scanned the first post) I would have to say it's a Hynobid - looks just like a Hynobid.

 

[froggy]

But which species is it? None are known from from Thailand, or at least recognised by taxonomic databases. I wonder if it would be worth tracking down the roiginal specimens in the London Natural History Museum. I might drop them a line and ask if I could take a look. The problem is that no registration numbers are given for the holotype/paratype....I wonder if they have all Gray's collection in one area...

What is Nate Nelson' sasquatch; I mean I know what a sasquatch is but not what Nate's personal one is, if that makes sense (sorry if I have mised something obvious)

 

[John]

Hehe, nevermind about the Sasquatch. Regarding your Hynobid, I think you need to jump on this Chris - there might be a species name and a paper in there for you. Go forth young man!

 

[froggy]

I contacted the curator of Amphibia at the BMNH about the specimens and received this reply:

"Dear Mr Michaels,

The specimens described by Gray as Plethodon persimilis were
subsequently identified as Ambystoma jeffersinianum (Green, 1827); see
extract below from the American Museum of Natural History Amphibian
Species of the World Database, Version 5.1 (see www.amnh.org). Click
Science, then Vertebrate Zoology, then Departmental sites. Go to
Ambystoma using look-up table on the left hand side and click on
Ambystoma jeffersonianum in list of species, scroll down and you will
find Plethodon persimilis in the list of synonyms).

Plethodon persimilis Gray, 1859, Proc. Zool. Soc. London, 1859: 230.
Syntypes: Not stated, presumably in BM. Type locality: "Siam" (in
error); thought in error to be from "Laos Mountains?" by Mivart, 1868
"1867", Proc. Zool. Soc. London, 1867: 699; designated as "vicinity of
New York City", USA, by Schmidt, 1953, Check List N. Am. Amph. Rept.,
Ed. 6: 19. Synonymy by Noble, 1926, Am. Mus. Novit., 212: 17.

The locality Siam must be in error since Ambystoma are all New World
salamanders. Locality errors of this magnitude were by no means unknown
in early collections. Presumably specimens were collected together from
different areas of the world when accompanying data (always poor, often
only the country of origin as in this case) became confused. The
Plethodon persimilis specimens were part of "Mr Mouhot's collection" so
this would make sense. Both specimens are in our type collection and are
in good condition for their age.

Yours sincerely,

Barry Clarke (Dr.)"

A little disappointing, but interesting nonetheless. It is ridiculous how mistakes of this sort could be made. I wonder why Gray didn't think that they looked awfully like other Anbystomids and do a bit of comparison, knowing how inaccurate locality data could be, then. I suppose he just wated to slap a name on a new species. He named a huge number of synonyms in his career too!

 

[froggy]

As a side note, the AMNH amphibian database at http://research.amnh.org/herpetology/amphibia/index.php is fantastic for getting both taxonomic information, type specimen locations/numbers and descriptive paper references.

 

[taherman]

One of the Ambystoma laterale/jeff complex was actually my first thought when I saw the engraving. It's actually a great representation of one. Not sure how they'll get along with those Paramesotriton though...

It's not that hard to imagine this taxonomic confusion if you think about the historical context of the early descriptions to understand how all the synonyms and misidentification can arise. There was no Joe Collins sending out an email to everyone on earth upon the description of a new species, and I would guess due to the communication options at the time, most herpetologists/naturalists were operating independently with limited knowledge of their colleagues' activities (or even their existence!). Descriptions were published in a diverse array of museum publications and journals with limited circulation (as they are today...but even more diverse and limited) but there was no google scholar to find them. And its not that hard to misplace one jar in a collection of thousands when there isn't an effective organizational system in place. Especially when it could be years before the next time someone looks at it.

It amazes me what the internet has done for communication, in the scientific world and beyond. Imagine photocopying the image of that engraving and snail mailing it to the 52 people who have viewed this thread so far. Then writing a letter to AMNH, and waiting for a response...

Thanks for posting the image and starting the topic. I chased Hemidactylium around east Texas based on 3 specimens from 1853 that just say "Texas" on the label. I didn't find any yet.

 

[froggy]

Taherman - Yes, the internet has done wonders for taxonomy (amongst many many many other things!). However, I get the impression from reading Gray's papers that he was especially lazy in research and was content to slap a name on something without actually looking at the specimens themselves properly (let alone looking for other specimens of the same species). The big mistake I was referring to wa someone labelling specimens as from Thailand when they actually came from the USA. I suppose that they were lumped into a jar with Thai things.
At least I found out before heading off to Thailand with a collecting box!

Chris

 

[John]

At least I found out before heading off to Thailand with a collecting box!

Take me with you!

 

[FrogEyes]

At least I found out before heading off to Thailand with a collecting box!

Chris

That's more or less how Karsenia koreana and Rheobatrachus silus were discovered.

The former was found by a teacher from Appalachia who naively searched Plethodon-type habitat in Korea. The latter was found by a Phillipine researcher who searched aquatic frog habitats in Australia. In both cases, not knowing that things they found at home could not be found in the places they were looking...they looked anyway!

I have every expectation that a range of plathodontids will be discovered across the breadth of northern Asia. Not a huge variety - they'll all be part of the western American lineage (Atylodes, Speleomantes, Hydromantes, Karsenia, "Aneides", Ensatina, "Plethodon"), but could be in any kind of terrestrial plethodont habitat in likely isolated pockets among the many mountain ranges between the Pacific and France. For that matter, I am always intrigued at the possibilities in Alaska and Siberia for pockets of wrong-continent amphibians.