Andersoni question

F

foster

Guest
A week and a half ago I finally picked up the group of E. andersoni juveniles that I purchased from Michael Shrom months ago. All of the animals (five total) look great and have been feeding well overall. They are housed individually in plastic containers with soil, leaf matter, and a cork bark shelter (much in the same way as Gord has his housed). I have been offering live white worms daily. In addition each enclosure has springtails and other small critters living in the substrate. One of the largest and most robust looking individuals has refused whiteworms for three days now. I have not been too worried because as already stated there is an abundance of prey items in the enclosure. Today however this same animal had climbed to the top of the enclosure and seemed to be actively trying to escape. Since I have yet to see any of them actually move more than a few mm I am wondering if I should be concerned? I am also wondering if all of the bugs could be too overwhelming (although the others do not seem to mind). Opinions?
Chip
 
I think what you're thinking is completely reasonable, as you obviously don't want to put excess stress on them with so much extra fauna going through the tank. But if the others don't seem to be reacting in a similar way then there may not be much to worry about. I would assume it has something to do more with moisture or temperature, more than likely its moisture, because that could be different than the other 4 individuals when being kept in separate containers.

I can't say anything for sure as I've never kept Echinos, but if it were me having a go at it, I would keep them as a group in a larger tank, something relative in size to a 10 gallon tank, I would keep one side moist with misting as needed, and keep the other side as dry as possible. That way you don't confine them to such a small microhabitat, that if one needs to move, it doesn't stress and try to escape.

If I noticed one of the animals being punked out for food, I would then separate, but if you have as much running around, as well as white worms being fed, I can't imagine that would be the case without other problems at hand.

I visited the Detroit Zoo just over a year ago, and they had several Echino juvies they had been raising communally in a larger tank. I didn't pay nearly enough attention to detail at the time, but I remember them all hiding under a piece of bark together, 6 or 7 individuals. They had been using crickets with great success as a portion of the diet. Fat and healthy, I was told they were tanks.
 
I'm far from an expert on this..and have been having my struggles lately with my echino.

But I've seen the echino trying to escape thing and I think it means that there is a problem.I'm going to guess high humidity or too wet substrate.It is tricky to keep a dry and wet side with a small micro climate. I've also noticed since I moved the juves to a warmer room there is more condensation as well. By the way, I'd never keep juves in a cold room again. That was a big mistake.

As for the food thing..I'd side with the plentiful food...as echino are the worst hunters I've ever seen. Yet they do seem to find the food if it wanders close by. I did find with the pinhead crickets that the echino seemed to be bothered by them climbing everywhere and on them. I never saw one get eaten. But they did get the worms. Whiteworms are good, tiny earthworms even better. If I do this again,I'll keep a huge supply of baby earthworms in storage for winter use.

It would be interesting to try a group of juve echino in a larger tank as Kyle described..but I'm not changing them now. The breeder said go with micro climates and he has much experience.

Echino have been challenging and gut wrenching!
 
Thanks for the input. I do not have the exact measurements of the containers on hand (they are round, app 8 inches or so in diameter) however they are large enough to allow for a damp side and a dry side (this is what Michael suggested and it is what I have been continuing to do). These animals are small btw, only a few cm long. Right now all of the containers are together in a styrofoam fish box. I have a digital thermometer with a temp probe in the box. The temps run around 70 F during the day and drop to the low 60's at night. Kyle, I'm afraid to house them all together at this point. Since they are so rare in the US I would hate for one husbandry mistake to wipeout the entire group. Gord, I totally agree with your challenging and gut wrenching description. Thanks again for the input.
Chip
 
I've not kept Echinotriton, but have had experience with other genera whose juveniles are very picky about climate.

try providing stacks of corkbark or stone, so that there are a number of caves on top of one another (at least one at substrate level and one above). This will provide a damp lower climate and a drier upper climate. This has worked very well for Paramesotriton juveniles, which like echinotriton like their habitat on the drier side.

You can also try tilting the containers so that water collects at one end; but make sure there are hides at the top, middle and bottom of the slope.

I would also say that its more important to have good ventillation with regular spraying than to create a humid environ with a sealed lid.

Also be careful of skin shedding problems in a drier habitat - make sure there is something rough they can rub against.

For feeding, try using a torch at night (don't point it directly at the animal) and using a cocktail stick or similar to offer a ball of whiteworms to the juvie. This means that the worms are held just above the substrate and don't disappear into it. I would imagine this would be particulkarly useful for very slow feeders.

Hope this helps
 
I like the idea of stacked corkbark Chris, I may give it a try. Last night after posting the individual of concern fed in front of me and fed again this morning as well, so I am not as worried at this point.
Chip
 
I'm amazed you can get them to feed in front of you..mine seem so nervous. Frozen when I pull the lid off. Weird.
 
Gord,
The ones that I have are definitely not beggars. What I have been doing is to pick up a whiteworm or two with a rounded toothpick and drop it in front of the animal. Too close and it seems to stress them out and too far and it does not even seem to be noticed. In general however they have all been feeding well this way. I have even started dipping the white worms in a vitamen/mineral mix before dropping them in. Also, in order to add some variety I have been taking thawed bloodworms and adding one to the end of the toothpick. The bloodworms stick well to the white worms and the writhing of the whiteworm causes the animal to consume the whole thing.
Chip
 
Just an update. All five seem to have grown accustomed to accepting food dangled off the end of a toothpick. In addition to the aforementioned food items I have since had success feeding 2 week old crickets (cut in half for the smaller individuals) and finely cut pieces of silverside fish. Later this week I am going to try bits of soaked reptomin. Even though I've not even had them a month yet it seems as if there is some noticeable growth in a few of them. Again, this is a very cool species to work with.
Chip
 
Excellent, and it sounds like you're having a bit of initial success -- congrats!
 
Chip:

Are you keeping your guys in the dark or in a semi lighted room? Do they feed in the light in front of you?

I can't get mine to eat in front of me at all.At least not with the lid off. I may try crickets again..just in case they were eating them and I didn't notice.

You are definitely doing something right.

I'd be interested in a pic of your basic juve set up.

GE
 
Hi Gord,
It took a lot of patience to get them to eat in front of me. As stated above I would drop a whiteworm in front of them and just wait (sometimes for 10 minutes or more) until it was consumed or the animal turned it's head away in disinterest. Gradually they all started snapping up the worms almost immediately. It was at this point that I started trying other food items. I still feel like something of a novice when it comes to salamander husbandry however I have years of experience with other herps. It is my guess that they have just become used to my presence and learned to associate the dangling toothpick with food - although this is only a guess as I obviously have no data to back this assumption up.
Unfortunately I am one of those few cavemen that has yet to purchase a digital camera however my setups look very similar to yours (as you had posted in another thread).
I do keep them all inside a styrofoam fish shipping box in order to provide a more stable temperature (and to protect them from direct sunlight - they are in a very sunny room). I keep the box flaps partially open to allow some light in but mainly to keep my cats out. They do feed in the light however. I just hope that this trend continues.
Chip
 
Well the individual that I originally posted about in this thread died. I'm not sure what could have caused it. It was feeding well on a variety of foods and then went off feed for three days at which point it died. This is most disheartening. I hate to lose any animal but especially those that are difficult (if not impossible) to replace. The other four seem to be doing well. Hopefully this was an isolated occurrence.
Chip
 
Chip:

I haven't checked this thread for a while.Sorry about your loss.I've lot 2 of my original 4. One is hanging on..and one is doing well. I've crammed their containers with whiteworms,as well as small earthworms and FF maggots.They don't seem to be enthusiastic feeders. Wish I new what could be done to change that. I think having a wide variety of food doesn't hurt.But it does get expensive if you aren't raising it.

But I'm still working at it.

GE
 
All I feed metamorphs through juveniles are whiteworms and pinhead crickets. I never see them eat. I just leave them alone and eventually they grow.

I think they need good air flow, a semi-dry place to hide and I have found that juveniles do best from 70-75F.
 
I tend to be a bit obsessive when it comes to watching any of my animals eat. I forcep feed pretty much everything. This not only allows me to insure that they are all eating but I also enjoy this limited interaction. At the risk of jinxing myself I can report that the remaining four individuals seem to be doing well and have consumed pretty much everything that I have dangled in front of them.
Chip
 
Foster:

I've been off the board for a while..got lost in the switch to a new server or whatever happened at this board. Anyway, I'm resigned in. If you are still around I'd be interested in how the echino made out. Mine all died and it freally bummed me out. They just stopped eating. Made me very anxious about doing it again..which it looks like I will by the way.

Anyway...fill us in if you see this.

GE
 
This particular group is still doing well. All of them have put on size however one is noticably smaller than the rest. I have noticed this trend in a group of JFB and a with the two C. e. popei that I have. Some individuals are much larger than the others. I am assuming that this may be because the sexes are separate but that is just a guess. An interesting note on their behavior is that all four are much less willing to feed from forceps or toothpicks now. Before they would all readily feed this way but over the past five or six months it just seems to stress them out when I offer food in this manner. I now just feed as EK does and drop in a cricket, earthworm chunk, etc and it usually is gone at the next feeding. Despite the size differences all four appear very chunky. I have been debating on whether or not to continue to keep them separate or place them together in one enclosure.
Chip
 
Thanks for the update.It's great to see success with this species. It was certainly the most challenging caudate I've cared for..and I hope to get it right yet.

Gord
 
Last year I kept all of my E. andersoni seperate. This year the juveniles are all in 2 small tanks. I'm feeding them white worms, dwarf isopods, fruit flies, and pin head crickets. I try to keep a little food in the tank most of the time. The newts freeze when they see me open tha tank. The move in jerky motions when I'm watching. I've only seen them eat a couple times but the food keeps dissapearing and they are growing. For me it has been easier to keep a bunch together and try to set up a micro-ecosystem where some of their food lives in the tank most of the time.
 
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