Arboreal sal question for breeding

[paris]

i have yet to see any indication this year that my arboreals will breed again so i was thinking of something the other day that just struck me....maybe i removed the only male from the set up! a recap of the story for those that dont know it....i had 3 adult arboreals in a planted woodland tank, they had just been moved to it from a smaller one.the smaller of the 3 sals would occasionally get bites, and id check on them intermittently (2-4 weeks dig each one up to check health) when i went to look at them one day-november 2002 i think, i noticed the smaller one had more than a few bites -it had a chunk of flesh near the tail base missing, so i decided i would separate this one and i dug up the others(dug up-means looking through the dense set up-they never tunnel)that is when i turned over a log in the set up and saw 2 sals curled up together-aroung each other and on the ceiling of the log i saw a clutch of eggs that they had been around. i removed the bitten one thinking that the tank now contained the parents of the clutch-that is,1 male and 1 female. they both stayed constantly curled around the eggs till the last few days when the 'female' kicked the 'male' out of the log. when they were near hatching i removed the log myself and 'tickeled' the babies out of their heavily drooping egg sacs then transfered them to a very tight lidded small set up. .....but here is my dellema, there is no dimorphism between those 2 that hatched the eggs out, the one i took out was i suppose a male...is it possible that there were 2 females guarding the set up instead and i removed the father?(this sal is smaller than the other 2)i can try to get pics on here next week(spring break) but i am wondering if i did the right thing removing the smaller one permanantly, does anyone else think i am left with 2 girls?

 

[brian]

Well I have trouble sexing these guys unless they are dead in a jar.

I have read that both males and females are found in the field with scars from what looks like intra-species agression. I don't know if males and females will fight or if it's a male/male and female/female thing. Anyway, I guess that means aggression can't be used to sex.

I don't know about the guarding. Males and females have been observed with the eggs and even the young (? not actually tested) sometimes. Although I have also heard of groups in the double digests with several adults.

So I guess it is possible that you had two females guarding the eggs. Can you see the gland on the chin in the males? Someone told me the males have "more" protruding teeth if you rub the front of the mouth. I don't know if it's true though.

 

[russ]

I suspect you did have two females guarding the same clutch. But you should be able to sex the adults. Besides the gland on a male's chin, which is pretty obvious, there is also a pronounced difference in the head structure. Males have a more bulbous head, where as the females narrow heads. I find this the best way to sex all adult Aneides.

Are you sure you didn't collect a gravid female and that all of your animals are females?

RUSS

 

[paris]

i'll get a pic soon-im at the store right now and shooting pics but i am not sure how long it will take me to make them avail on the web. these sals were a year and a half in captivity before the eggs were laid ..so there is a chance that the fem was gravid and just held on to them for longer than usual, i am not sure how long between breeding and laying for these guys but i read they bred annually so i figured that breeding and 'gestation' had happened since they had become captives.

 

[brian]

I don't suppose anyone has two good head shots of a male and female?

 

[paris]

gee funny you ask.....i just got some good ones-they even show the teeth! i do have a pair in the tank it turns out. i have to get to fencing practice-so here is just a few quick ones, i have more....

this is the male

this is the female

the female is bigger, but to me her head is bigger than the males in comparison, not so much wider but longer, here is a pic of her

 

[brian]

Ok thanks. I think I can see the gland.

Actually maybe they take a break between reproductive years. Someone told me some tropical/subtropical Pleths appear to.

 

[russ]

Good shots. You hit it right on the nose about the females head appearing longer. I'm not sure about the every other year thing with breeding, though I've heard it before too.


RUSS

 

[brian]

Just thought about this, but maybe Aneides lugubris needs a "California summer" simulation to breed.

I have no idea how to do this safely though in a tank.