Axies in the LA area?

krk11 said:
I don't think the "penalty" is what really matters here. If people ignore the law and bring axolotls into California the native California tiger salamander could be in trouble. If people don't want their animal anymore and release them into the wild the whole species could begin to cross breed and create hybrids. I live in Hawaii and only a few species are allowed here with a permit. I learned to live with it, and just get the species that are legal here.
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Also, just to add this has already happened, and I think the state is still trying to decide how to deal with this problem. On Google video, there is a nice talk from William McIver- http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7080383589647690657&pr=goog-sl (Unfortunately, you can't see the slides.), but it points out a lot of the complexities of the problem.
 
Holy moly I hope you didn't haveto write all that out by typing lol. Yeah that is interesting but hazy. There's still no straight yes & no which would probably in your legal system be a loop hole in court (maybe if you took on fish & games).
 
MistressOfAxies said:
Holy moly I hope you didn't haveto write all that out by typing lol. Yeah that is interesting but hazy. There's still no straight yes & no which would probably in your legal system be a loop hole in court (maybe if you took on fish & games).
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Gotta love copy and paste functions :)
 
MistressOfAxies said:
Holy moly I hope you didn't haveto write all that out by typing lol. Yeah that is interesting but hazy. There's still no straight yes & no which would probably in your legal system be a loop hole in court (maybe if you took on fish & games).
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There is a straight "yes or no". NO. Ambystoma are banned, regardless of the common name. They are NOT legal in California. Axolotls CAN hybridize with tiger salamanders, which is how we got albino axolotls.
 
Kaysie said:
There is a straight "yes or no". NO. Ambystoma are banned, regardless of the common name. They are NOT legal in California. Axolotls CAN hybridize with tiger salamanders, which is how we got albino axolotls.
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If you look at the list for other families/orders. If the entire family/order is banned they state "All species banned", but when a specific species or group of species are banned, they are specific listing "scientific name (common name)" When you come to the line "All species of the genus Ambystoma (tiger salamanders)". This isn't clear. They should simply under "Family Ambystomatidae-Mole Salamanders" write "All species banned" This would be in accord with the rest of the document. How this is worded has confused a lot of people, and I don't think it's simple as Yes/No. Cautious folk would say all are banned, but it's not clear at all. After reading the document, I understand why I've gotten so many different answers to the question.

Also can you show me where A. mexicanum was crossed with A. californiese. To my knowledge this hasn't been documented and the particular situation that you mention was not found in the wild, but as I understand it, done in a lab.

On a lighter note. I just read

"(A) Order Primates -Monkeys, Apes
All species (W), except Family Hominidae -not restricted."

I can ship my peoples to CA :)
 
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Axolotls have crossed with tiger salamanders (A. tigrinum/mavortium complex). A. tigrinum/mavortium has crossed with A. californiese (which is what has lead to this hybrid-vigor issue, leading to the banning of tiger salamanders). Regardless of WHERE the breeding happened between the tiger salamander and the axolotl, they do have the ability to crossbreed. After all, axolotls were considered tiger salamanders for many years. They're still derived from tiger salamanders.
 
Kaysie said:
Axolotls have crossed with tiger salamanders (A. tigrinum/mavortium complex). A. tigrinum/mavortium has crossed with A. californiese (which is what has lead to this hybrid-vigor issue, leading to the banning of tiger salamanders). Regardless of WHERE the breeding happened between the tiger salamander and the axolotl, they do have the ability to crossbreed. After all, axolotls were considered tiger salamanders for many years. They're still derived from tiger salamanders.
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But, just because you can cross them in the lab it doesn't mean it will be a problem in the wild. You can make lion/tiger hybrid, but no one worries this will happen in nature because of the behavioral/environmental boundaries of the animals would not allow this. CA tigers and Barreds have some overlap in behaviors/environments. It should be noted that most of the CA x Barred problem occurs when a permanent source of water is created. In vernal pools the selection against barreds is great and hybridization is not as severe. On the other hand, CA tigers and Axolotls have very different behaviors/environments. I don't think you can infer that since A mates with B, and B with C (in a lab), so A must mate with C. Do axolotls interbreed with A. velasci where their range overlaps? I'd suspect not if they were able to speciate.
 
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You stated yourself that your axolotl attempted to court your californiense. How do you know this wouldn't happen in the wild if axolotls were to be introduced? I'm not saying it would, definitely, but the possibility is there, and why run the risk?

Speciation happens for many reasons. There can be geographical boundries, behavioral changes, or a host of other reasons. These animals may very well still be able to interbreed. I mean, horses and donkeys are two different species, but can cross breed. Horses and zebras are also two different species, but when given the opportunity will cross breed. Jefferson's sals and blue-spotted sals also easily hybridize.
 
I guess I typed a response and I didn't hit post. To summarize: I would like to have direct evidence rather than an inferred relationship. In my case, it tempted to court, but notably was unsuccessful. I of course can see the merits of your position, and I'm content to leave this issue where it stands.
 
Wow, people really got into depth with this. I just wanted to know where i can get a completely aquatic salamander of some sort. (the only one i know of is an axolotl) I do no in any way advocate breaking the law, More so i think its irresponsible to release your animal into the wild.(look up the wild snakefish problem) I'm just sad now that I can't get an axolotl :(.
 
Bloodysamflint said:
Wow, people really got into depth with this. I just wanted to know where i can get a completely aquatic salamander of some sort. (the only one i know of is an axolotl) I do no in any way advocate breaking the law, More so i think its irresponsible to release your animal into the wild.(look up the wild snakefish problem) I'm just sad now that I can't get an axolotl :(.
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I think your answers are in this thread. I assure you that you can still find axolotls for sale in pet stores on occasion in CA. If you inquire about legality, they'll either state that only tiger salamanders are illegal, will be ignorant of the law, or give some variation of the two. Additionally there is that option that some online vendors will ship anything to CA, but I'd be surprised if anyone on this website would be compliant. I'd also not encourage you to deal in questionable business transactions.

If you just want a aquatic species. You can get Necturus and sirens in the state. I think a fishing license might let you collect a neotenic Dicamptodon if you know where to find them, but you should double check that one. But there are other options for you apart from an axolotl.
 
You may also look into Pleurodeles. They're highly aquatic, and have a lot of personality (to make up for their not-so-impressive appearance).
 
I wonder if this is something new. East Bay Vivarium sold them for years and had them at the last reptile show I went to. When I contacted them this month though they told me they were illegal to sell.
Niles Biological also used to sell them but they said they currently don't have a breeder.
Niles also sells Cane Toads (bufo murinus) which I know are illegal in CA....
 
WOW! theres some intelligent people on this forum! ... and altho i have no idea about cross breeding with axolotls, i have to second the fact that altho sexuall imprinting as well as all imprinting that happpens to any species in the wild, alot of species/individuals will go againts this, so just because it shouldnt happen, doesnt meen it doesnt. its the same as being homosexual or insest in humans, even with sexual imprinting at an early age, it is down to the individuals that at the end of the day mate with whom, or what ever they find sexually attractive. (im not classing axoltls with humans/human inteligance or human freewill, just helping with my explination). It all comes down to how closley related the animals are (in terms of genes) as they would have to have the same amount of genes for the animal to fall pregnant and have offspring that will be able to bare young themselves :).... and as the axies can cross breed with the tigersalamda, there would be no lopoles to get around, and it would be illigal. Sorry if im just repeating what peopel have previously said, i have only read page two of this thread. ...and just wanted to get involveld :) lol
 
I asked for official clarification about this from the CA fish and game dept. today. They said Ambystoma mexicanum are illegal. I think this must be a relatively new law or newly enforced. As Ambystoma sp. were widely available in pet stores last year for certain, but this year seem to be widely banned.

I didn't ask about what those of us who had previously obtained Ambystoma sp. are expected to do with them, but those of us owning Ambystoma sp. should be aware of our status.
 
"(b) The commission has determined the below listed animals are not normally domesticated in this state."

I think this law is clear but the above statement invites political lobbying if there are quite a few domesticated axolotls already out there, and several posts suggest many may have been sold over the years openly in the state. How did the commission inquire about the level of domestication?

If it's a new law and the commission did not do its job then maybe the law can be reversed. Just don't spend a fortune on litigation. I believe the freedom of information act my let you get at the nature and extent of the consultation prior to the determination if you really want to devote your life to fighting a cause! For a quiet life settle for a different pet.
 
I'm not sure I understand exactly what is banned. I've heard that tiger salamander larvae were banned because they were used as fish bait and subsequently released. These released bait larvae are the founders of the barred tiger salamander populations which in some areas have hybridized extensivley with the native California tiger salamanders.

That said, I regularly go down to the NARBC herp show/sale that's held in Anaheim California, and I also used to attend the IRBA herp shows pretty regularly. Adult barred tiger salamanders were always available. There are always at least two California Department of Fish and Game Wardens at the Anaheim sales, and the barred tiger salamanders are always out in plain view, and labeled as such. Maybe this year, if they're selling them again, I'll try to get some clarification.
 
All Ambystoma species are banned without the correct permit. That includes all mole salamanders from A (altamirani) to V (velasci) and everything in between. I don't know when the law came into effect. It used to be just tiger salamanders were restricted, but something was either recently changed or enforced. I suspect this was a response to the 2007 attention given to the CA x Barred hybrid vigor study. (Discussed here: http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=50307).
 
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