Black Bombina orientalis

wouter

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Hi all, I picked this one up at a local store. It should be a Bombina orientalis, but it is very large (almost 7 cm) and very dark coloured. I've seen brown and dark brown Bombina orientalis before, but never anything like this. Melanism maybe?

Comments anyone?
45951.jpg


45952.jpg
 

pollywog

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Hi Wouter,
Last year I was given a specimen that looks very similar:
45957.jpg

45958.jpg

45959.jpg

From what I can work out it is a hybrid Bombina orientalis x Bombina variegata. The hybrid vigor would account for the large size.
 
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jarno

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a hybrid orientalis x variegata is possible but pretty strange. variegata is in the netherlands illegal, so you can't buy it in a petshop or something. It is a native species, but there are only a view left in nature (in a protected area).
I know there is also hybridization possible between orientalis and maxima en bombina. But I don't know how these hybrids look like.

(Message edited by jarno on October 24, 2005)
 

pollywog

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There is a pet shop here in the UK called Coast 2 Coast Exotics who every year breed and offer orientalis x variegata hybrids under the name of Frankenstein Fire-bellied Toads.
 

wouter

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Hm interesting Andrew, I remembered these pics from your site so I just looked for them, but they're not on your updated site... Doesn't matter, here they are! The animal on your pics does indeed look very similar. I thought about the large size as a consequense of hybridisation too, this is seen in more hybrids throughout the animal world.
So I will have to get some money together and to a genetics test
wink.gif
 

pollywog

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I removed the photographs from my site as I am rather strongly against unnatural hybrids and didn't want to give the wrong impression to people visiting my site.
Please let me know if you do have them tested I would be greatly interested in the results.

(Message edited by pollywog on October 24, 2005)

(Message edited by pollywog on October 24, 2005)
 
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edward

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Could it be a melanistic specimen? The orange belly color is partially due to the sequestering of carotenoids so this color could be left unaffected.

Ed
 
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jarno

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Bei kreuzungen von Bombina orientalis x Bombina variegata bleiben auch nach Canthaxanthin-Gaben die Bauche gelb. (Raehmel, 1976)

So the belly of the offspring (orientalis x variegata) stays yellow like the variegata even after giving them Canthaxanthin.
 
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jarno

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Canthaxanthin is a colouring-matter (Red-orange). It is strange because the animals of Andrew and Wouter are orange and not yellow.

Andrew how sure are you about the fact that those Frankensteins are a hybrid between orientalis and variegata?
 
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edward

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There are non-carotenoid sequestered pigments in the ventral coloration of Bombina. For example, this is why in cb orientalis, unless there is a source of a red carotenoid pigment, the ventral color is yellow. Canthaxanthin is one of a group of about 500 carotenoids and is not the only one that is red. Astaxanthin for example is another red carotenoid as is lycopene...
So the orange color could be the result of the red and yellow pigment combining to produce the orange..
Ed
 

pollywog

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The size and build of the specimen are what steer me away from the idea of them being melanistic, they are much larger and sturdier than B. orientalis.
I will contact the shop I mentioned and ask if they have any photographs of their animals.
 

pollywog

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As for the ventral coloration many naturally occurring B. bombina x B. variegata hybrids I have seen show an orange coloration.
 
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edward

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Hi Alan,

Other species are pretty uncommon in the USA so I have to rely on your judgement and experience.

Ed
 

wouter

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Wow very old thread... The Bombina is still doing well! For sure this isn't B. maxima, I kept that species myself a couple of years ago.

The Bombina shown in the last post (Quetzacoatl) reminds me the most of a Southern Chinese/Vietnamese species (Bombina microdeladigitora or Bombina fortinuptialis) because of the green spots, otherwise its just a B. maxima.
 

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scored some albino B varigata`s,layed eggs??also have a blue& a B orientalis in the tank,i heard the can mix,no defects etc??
 

Joep

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there is new way to own protected animals in Holland,u just need a paper,that says u bought them from an other country,proof origin

a hybrid orientalis x variegata is possible but pretty strange. variegata is in the netherlands illegal, so you can't buy it in a petshop or something. It is a native species, but there are only a view left in nature (in a protected area).
I know there is also hybridization possible between orientalis and maxima en bombina. But I don't know how these hybrids look like.

(Message edited by jarno on October 24, 2005)
 
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