breeding frogs for tadpoles?

fishkeeper

New member
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
563
Reaction score
11
Points
0
Age
31
Country
United States
Display Name
Joseph S
Seems newts eat a large number of frog tads in the wild.

Is their any species that is easy enough to breed to possibly provide an occasional treat? Providing they are clean CB animals disease transmission should be minimal correct?
 

freves

Active member
Joined
Dec 8, 2003
Messages
1,061
Reaction score
21
Points
38
Age
53
Location
Virginia
Country
United States
Display Name
Foster Reves
I am a huge proponent of offering as large of a variety as possible and ethically I see no problem with offering some common species as food. With that being said however it just seems that it would be a great deal of time and effort involved to breed frogs just for tadpole snacks. In addition it may be against certain state and local laws as well. Interesting idea though.
Chip
 

Kaysie

Site Contributor
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
14,466
Reaction score
99
Points
0
Location
North Dakota
Country
United States
Display Name
Kaysie
Wood frogs. They breed with anything.
 

fishkeeper

New member
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
563
Reaction score
11
Points
0
Age
31
Country
United States
Display Name
Joseph S
Chip/Kaysie:

I doubt any of our local species(except maybe lab bred Rana pipiens) would fit the bill. Ideally this frog would...

-Be relatively easy to keep and feed
-breed year round
-prolific
-should be interesting in and of itself since it would not be a true feeder

I've heard of people keeping breeding groups of axolotls to supply feeder larvae. Why not frogs? The most obvious matches would be Xenopus. But as carriers of chytrid you'd have to make darned sure you have clean stock. Hymenochirus are also quite prolific but the tadpoles produced are too small unless you want tadpole treats for baby newts. What about Polypedates leucomystax?
 

taherman

Caudata.org Donor
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
391
Reaction score
33
Points
28
Location
Whitehouse, OH
Country
United States
In my experience wood frogs are actually not the easiest species to keep long term, after a few years they develop major health problems on a diet of standard feeder insects (lipid keratopathy, obesity). They also do not breed readily without being freshly collected from the wild (and retained eggs compound the health problems), and would only breed once per year for you. For native species, green frogs (Rana clamitans), or gray treefrogs (Hyla versicolor) are much more prolific and hardy captives which I've bred for several generations in the past few years.

Hyperolius argus is a species of African reed frog that we've started keeping at the zoo. They reproduce consistently and would provide a fairly steady stream of small tadpoles. Tyrone Hayes at UC Berkeley uses this species as a developmental bioassay, so it must breed just as well for him. Some of ours (wild caught) did test positive for chytrid though, so you'd definitely want to treat them thoroughly before you start using them for food. They are a very interesting frog as well, males are translucent green, females are dark red/orange with white polkadots. Babies look very similar to glass frogs.

-Tim
 

fishkeeper

New member
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
563
Reaction score
11
Points
0
Age
31
Country
United States
Display Name
Joseph S
Very cool. How large are the clutches? That is an odd species for the bill since I've not heard of many hobbyists breeding them.

I don't plan on trying this myself anytime soon until I'm settled down with a critter room, but maybe for those breeding newts they'd be a great extra boost. For sure, many wild newts get plenty of tadpoles during the breeding season.
 

luvmycreatures

New member
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
19
Reaction score
2
Points
0
Country
United States
I know that most people on the DAF list I'm on, have frogs that breed constantly. These guys are pretty small though. I would think breeding fish, worms or isopods would be less work for the turn out.
 

Slimy2

Member
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
222
Reaction score
8
Points
18
Location
Springfield, Missouri
Country
United States
Display Name
Cameron Cheri
American toads and Fowler's toads breed nearly all year round and lay hundreds of eggs in each strand. I think they would be easy to raise and breed too.

Just thought that might help.
 

fishkeeper

New member
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
563
Reaction score
11
Points
0
Age
31
Country
United States
Display Name
Joseph S
DAF breed like crazy. But yes the tadpoles are a bit tiny for this purpose. Might be good for feeding larvae. I was thinking of fattening breeders and offering a natural food item.

Slimy2: I never heard of people breeding US toads in captivity before, except for the CB baby albino woodhouse toads.
 

dario

New member
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
27
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Rome,Italy
Country
Italy
Display Name
perfect
Interesting thread...Bombina orientalis? As I can see, this specie breed two - three time a year and tadpoles are long 2 cm, good for a newt. I think tossicity in bombina tadpoles is lower than in adult toads.
 

John

Founder
Staff member
Joined
Feb 6, 2001
Messages
8,058
Reaction score
248
Points
63
Age
44
Location
USA
Country
Ireland
Display Name
John Clare
Bufo and Bombina tadpoles both contain toxins. If you must use frogs/tadpoles as food, you would be better to stick with Ranids - they are more or less poison-free.
 

Azhael

Site Contributor
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
6,645
Reaction score
93
Points
0
Location
Burgos
Country
Spain
Display Name
Rodrigo
Just a little thought. It´s true Bufo tadpoles have toxins, but they are a natural and favoured source of food for european newts. Seems like european newts have evolved to be resistant to those toxins, the same way the genus Natrix is resistant to all native amphibian toxins. Might be an issue for non-european species though....it would be interesting for an study.
 

fishkeeper

New member
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
563
Reaction score
11
Points
0
Age
31
Country
United States
Display Name
Joseph S
I think almost all newts live with and perhaps consume at least bufo tadpoles at least one time or another. For example TJ has posted photos of Cynops in pools of Bufo japonica larvae. Not sure about Bombina though.
 

caleb

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Messages
509
Reaction score
14
Points
18
Location
NE England
Country
United Kingdom
Display Name
Caleb Leeke
It´s true Bufo tadpoles have toxins, but they are a natural and favoured source of food for european newts.

Are they? Frog tadpole (especially Rana temporaria) predation by European newts is well documented, but I don't know of any reports of them taking Bufo tadpoles.

This paper:
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3682503

found that smooth newts would spit out toad tadpoles if they caught them.
 

Azhael

Site Contributor
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
6,645
Reaction score
93
Points
0
Location
Burgos
Country
Spain
Display Name
Rodrigo
I think i recall reading an article about T.marmoratus predation over Bufo bufo tadpoles, i´ll try to find it.
It´s not cientifically relevant, but it´s my own experience, that when i was little and spent hours beholding L.helveticus in my village i often saw them eating tadpoles of Bufo bufo and R.temporaria. Plus when i caught them (i was young and stupid and ignorant) i fed them tadpoles and they disappeared incredibly fast.
If i´m mistaken i´m sorry.
 

Mark

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Messages
3,259
Reaction score
52
Points
48
Location
Bristol
Country
United Kingdom
This article suggests that resistance to bufonid tadpole toxins is related to evolutionary exposure. I don’t know if that follows for all bufo species or even relates to newts, but it would make sense.

I do know that given the opportunity my P.waltl will wolf down Bufo bufo tadpoles with no ill effects.
 

dario

New member
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
27
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Rome,Italy
Country
Italy
Display Name
perfect
I do know that given the opportunity my P.waltl will wolf down Bufo bufo tadpoles with no ill effects.

I tried too and no problems...but one or twice poor common toads...;)
In my own experience, toadlets too (a few days after missing tail) are probably not very toxic, I can see Water Frogs feeding on them without any apparent problems.
 

taherman

Caudata.org Donor
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
391
Reaction score
33
Points
28
Location
Whitehouse, OH
Country
United States
Hyperolius argus lays multiple clutches of around 30 eggs. Amphibiaweb says 200 eggs total/frog. With a group of around 20 you could have a steady supply I bet. Almost every time you rain on them you get eggs. Tadpoles grow fairly slowly, and get up to around 1.5" before they morph.

The problem with Bufo spp is the eggs are all or nothing, so you'll have several thousand tadpoles, and they only stay in the water a few weeks. It will probably be a year before you'd have another batch from the female. Plus you'll need a lot more food to keep a group of adults going. I would also be concerned about toxins affecting species which don't naturally eat your Bufo of choice.

-Tim
 

fishkeeper

New member
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
563
Reaction score
11
Points
0
Age
31
Country
United States
Display Name
Joseph S
Based on some reading around I think Polypedates leucomystax may be the best candidate. Adults are just the right size(big enough to feed easily, not so big it is a chore), and readily breed in a rain chamber. Tadpoles get to good size. They are CB fairly often also. And cool frogs for a tall enclosure
 

pesco

New member
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
30
Reaction score
2
Points
0
Age
46
Location
London, England
Country
Poland
Tadpoles of R.temporaria are great as a feeder to netws as well as fish (I kept quite a lot Cichlidae, mainly Malawi and S.American species), and youngsters are perfect for some sneakes. I must say that without supply of live young frogs I wouldn't be able to grow so many young Natrix natrix.

Its possible to breed some Rana species all year round. As an experiment I spawned Rana temporaria few times during a year, in August, October and January. It was intended as an experiment and it was succesfull, but I don't think its worth doing so unless you keep species specialized in eating amphibians. I kept group of R. tmporara in a covered vivarium in a cellar with lighting on timer, and every day or so I was shortening a day (part of a day with lights on) length. In few weeks they were moved to an old fridge. The fridge had removed light swith and installed timer instead. After 5-8 weeks they went to water to hibernate. In the area I was growing up R.temporaria hibernate in streems, its mountain area, so the current is strong and water is saturated with gases including oxygen, so combining with slower metabolism enables frogs to just lay down without the need of active breathing - oxygen intake throuthe skin covers the demand. To symulate that I put a pretty strong powerhead. It was generating strong current in a vivarium and by mixing a bit of air with the flow it kept conditions pretty much the same as in a wild stream. To cut short hibernation period daytime was extended gradually, then the frogs were moved to a vivarium and soon they started to spawn.


Tadpoles of european toads were only eaten by Cichlids if they were really hungry and I noticed that newts didn't go crazy for them either. Toxins they contain are not very strong, but still I wouldn't make them main food source. I guess that newts (and their tadpoles) are eating toads tadpoles in the wild, but I dont remember reading any paper about this. Fact that they are eating toad tadpoles in captivity might be a result of fewer food sources available in our tanks - they eat whatever we give them to not starve :D
 
General chit-chat
Help Users
  • No one is chatting at the moment.
  • Ax0lot:
    Hey does anyone know why my axolotls mouth is stuck open? Been like that for a few weeks and when I tested water everything was fine
    +1
    Unlike
  • blubford:
    you should probably take it to the vet
    +1
    Unlike
  • blubford:
    so that dumb salamander state to state import bill didnt pass i take it right
    +1
    Unlike
  • blubford:
    havent heard news about it in a good while
    +1
    Unlike
  • wnorman293:
    Hi, how do you delete a post?
    +1
    Unlike
  • blubford:
    you dont
    +1
    Unlike
  • blubford:
    just kidding but i think there should be an option for it on your profile mabye
    +1
    Unlike
  • ipsoslolly:
    Hi guys my axolotl has not used his back legs since late Tuesday night,is this normal . He back half keeps floating up the way
    +1
    Unlike
  • blubford:
    that doesnt sound good
    +1
    Unlike
  • bearbear_13:
    Is it normal for my axie to eat every day? He’s overly hungry 😛
    +1
    Unlike
  • Dr. Phil:
    I'm new here but do I detect a bit of sarcasm in these comments? Ya'll sound like a fine bunch to me!
    +1
    Unlike
  • axolotl nerd:
    oh yes we’re all very sarcastic
    +1
    Unlike
  • Jokerjay:
    My son and I have been looking for a water dog/tiger salamander for quite some time now with no luck has anybody know how or where to find any
    +1
    Unlike
  • Jokerjay:
    @axolotl nerd, where can I find waterdogs or tiger salamanders my son has wanted one for a long time and I've been searching high and low with no luck
    +1
    Unlike
  • xxianxx:
    @Jokerjay, its a good idea to tell people where you are from. This is an international group. I have eastern tigers, im in the uk.
    +1
    Unlike
  • axolotl nerd:
    @Jokerjay, as in water dogs do you mean axolotls? i suggest very heavy research and a fully cycled tank before even considering purchasing one
    +1
    Unlike
  • bearbear_13:
    Axolotls are amazing until they get sick and then they’re a pain in the backside to treat - I recently lost two axolotls due to unknown causes
    +1
    Unlike
  • KonaGoldAquatics:
    Anyone from the us? Looking for at least one or two axolotls for me and my son to have our own at-home project together.
    +1
    Unlike
  • axolotl nerd:
    i highly recommend “buyanaxolotl.com”- ive purchased from them and received a beautiful animal for relatively cheap, in great condition, and excellent shipping precautions. the breeders are a couple living in georgia (i believe, don’t quite remember) and they’re fantastic. sometimes their website contact page doesn’t work, so i’d probably try just emailing them. good luck and happy hunting!
    +1
    Unlike
  • blubford:
    do those aquarium fans work well for axolotls
    +1
    Unlike
  • Sheryl Fraser:
    My little guy got stuck in the filter yesterday. His back leg is red. Will this heal
    +1
    Unlike
  • Chat Bot:
    Z-One has left the room.
    +1
    Unlike
  • KonaGoldAquatics:
    Any recommendations on a water chiller for a 10gallon but will work for a 20gal when I decide to upgrade?
    +1
    Unlike
  • Tinc Tank:
    Anybody working with and breeding Salamandra salamandra salamandra?
    +2
    Unlike
  • blubford:
    heh
    +1
    Unlike
    blubford: heh +1
    Top