cycling w axolotl in tank

[catstralnaut]

thoughts on this?

i have been cycling with my guy in the tank for about two months now based on recommendations by my local exotic pet store. they feel, as do i, that adding an outside ammonia source (even WITHOUT the guy in the tank) isn’t advisable. i do daily water changes, depending on parameters, while adding beneficial bacteria as well as dechlorinator with every change. it has definitely been a very slow progression, but i am seeing it happen. there have been no visible signs of stress for my axie, aside from when there was a heat wave and it was more difficult to keep the temperature down without a chiller (ie. gill fungus). although even during this time the tank was never over 21C.

at one point i had added a very fine sand to the tank but i found it an incredible nuisance to maintain and i had an overbearing detritus population that was most likely from the java moss i had attached to a piece of driftwood in the tank. i had removed all live plants as well as the driftwood and sand to be able to monitor the parameters/worms without too many unanswered questions that i was having a hard time answering myself. it definitely knocked the cycle back a bit, but i am very diligent with twice daily testing and water changes as needed.

i recently made a post on a facebook group regarding my parameters for the last 4 days in hopes someone would confirm that i was either just about to complete my cycle or if more time was needed, and whether adding black sand (stoney river) was advisable or not. basically everyone on facebook believes the only safe amount of ammonia/nitrite is 0 and they all act as though i am putting my axie through harm or stress by cycling with him in the tank, but i’m stuck because i have read many things in the last two months regarding this and was under the impression that it is safe as long as i am doing what i am currently doing. ammonia/nitrites have never been over 0.5 for both compounds at any time, ever, and my nitrates are currently registering at a constant 5.0, probably never getting higher because of the water changes i am doing. ammonia currently at a constant 0, nitrites sometimes getting to 0.25 which cues my water change.

i guess what i am wondering is if anyone else has successfully cycled their tank with their axie in while maintaining their health/cycle in the end. if the tank is never converting high amounts of ammonia, like with the fish less cycling, is it still possible to successfully cycle and carry the appropriate bio load for one axie?

i realize i am doing it the hard way, but if there are to be toxic compounds in the water i would somehow prefer that they came about organically and not derived. am i crazy? there are a lot of “axie pros” out there on facebook, but i’m not sure if they are backed by science or by other facebook posts and i am currently questioning my own research and experience because of their comments.

my guy has very floofy gills, eats regularly, and is active at all the normal times (nighttime). the only time he got a bit lethargic is when i removed the sand (i think he was sad because he really liked cruising around in it).

i just need validation that i am not a bad owner. i give 90% of my limited spare time to dealing with this tank and it’s hitting me hard in the gut rn to think that these people are right. i am no doubt going about it in the longest format/most expensive way possible but at the end of the day it will be a naturally cycled tank and my dude should be able to handle minor spikes if they are ever to occur in the future.

posting a pic of him currently for reference (yes, i added the black sand), as well as a pic of water parameters from today after doing a 50% w/c yesterday when adding the sand. his name is rizla and he is in a 20g long tank with two 20g sponge filters powered by 10g pumps. for the first part of cycling i was using the exotic pet store brand aloe-free dechlorinator and bacteria (it’s called “peter’s”) but i could never find info online so recently switched to seachem prime and stability because i could at least find more info online about it.

i would also just like to say that if i ever witnessed any type of stress or issue i would immediately take him out and proceed as the groups had advised, but since i have not witnessed any of this, i feel somewhat confident that i am doing the right thing for us. riz actually freaks out the most if and when i ever move him to a smaller container, so i generally try to avoid this as much as possible. i have also since left those facebook groups as they seem to have only one answer to everything, which is to tub your axie and add more ammonia into the tank.

any info is appreciated and thank you for reading my novel!

 

[catstralnaut]

ps. riz lost his ls gill stalk on his first day at home. he developed a fungus (which i had posted about on caudata) most likely due to the change in water parameters and the stress of the move. we were also going through a heat wave at that time. he’s never had issues with gill fungus EXCEPT for when the heat waves were abound. tank sits at a nice 17-18C now that weather has mellowed out and i use a reptile tank cover with a small usb fan blowing on the surface. might need to figure something out for winter when the radiator kicks in that is pretty close to where the tank sits, though!

 

[AMurry24537]

Okay, so. To be clear, in order to cycle a tank, you need a source of ammonia, whether it's fish, axolotls, or store-bought ammonia. The ammonia is the food for the bacteria. I personally would never recommend using live animals to cycle the tank because it can be very hard on them since both ammonia and nitrites are very toxic. The water changes prevent these from getting to problematic levels (for your live animals) until your tank is fully cycled and the bacteria is able to take care of them on their own. Because of the frequent water changes, an occupied tank will take longer to cycle (since you're intentionally taking away the food source and trying to leave just enough to advance the cycle) just as you mentioned. As the tank gets closer and closer to being cycled, you shouldn't have to do water changes as often as at the beginning until eventually, you'll only need to do them once a week. Since axolotls produce so much waste, it takes even longer for appropriate amounts of bacteria to accumulate to a level big enough to handle their bio-load. Again, I would never use live animals to cycle a tank unless I didn't really care if they lived or died since it can be very rough on them, but as long as your axolotl seems healthy, I wouldn't worry too much. Please do be aware that adding liquid ammonia (to a non-inhabited tank, of course) generates the exact same kind of cycle, but without stressing out animals. It is no less natural in the outcome, it is only the source that differs.

 

[catstralnaut]

Okay, so. To be clear, in order to cycle a tank, you need a source of ammonia, whether it's fish, axolotls, or store-bought ammonia. The ammonia is the food for the bacteria. I personally would never recommend using live animals to cycle the tank because it can be very hard on them since both ammonia and nitrites are very toxic. The water changes prevent these from getting to problematic levels (for your live animals) until your tank is fully cycled and the bacteria is able to take care of them on their own. Because of the frequent water changes, an occupied tank will take longer to cycle (since you're intentionally taking away the food source and trying to leave just enough to advance the cycle) just as you mentioned. As the tank gets closer and closer to being cycled, you shouldn't have to do water changes as often as at the beginning until eventually, you'll only need to do them once a week. Since axolotls produce so much waste, it takes even longer for appropriate amounts of bacteria to accumulate to a level big enough to handle their bio-load. Again, I would never use live animals to cycle a tank unless I didn't really care if they lived or died since it can be very rough on them, but as long as your axolotl seems healthy, I wouldn't worry too much. Please do be aware that adding liquid ammonia (to a non-inhabited tank, of course) generates the exact same kind of cycle, but without stressing out animals. It is no less natural in the outcome, it is only the source that differs.

thank you for your response.

like i said, rizla has never exhibited any signs of stress except for when the water temperatures had increased due to weather and lack of a chiller. i constantly monitor the water temperature and his behaviour even when i am at work through a live feed webcam and test parameters twice per day (before/after work - i work pretty extensive hours sometimes 12+ hours per day which is why i wanted to visually monitor things while i was away) also, the amount of ammonia that would build up in a smaller container over this period of time is sure to be more concentrated than what it is in his 20g tank.

i feel it would be safe to assume that i am nearing the end of my cycle as ammonia is regularly testing at 0 with nitrites sometimes rising to 0.25-0.5 depending on whether i performed a w/c or not, but i’m not sure the actual level of ammonia that is being produced and converted as i am doing such frequent water changes. i had been advised (by several sources on the internet, which i realize probably doesn’t account for much) that seachem prime binds ammonia/nitrites for a short time which i have been dbl dosing on the daily as a preventative measure. is it wrong to assume that exposure to low levels of the compounds for shorter periods of time is a better preventative measure against unforeseen spikes in the future? if an axolotl was NEVER exposed to any amount of ammonia/nitrite would an unforeseen spike not cause them a quicker response to illness?

 

[catstralnaut]

due to the inherent stress this topic is causing my conscience i am going to purchase dr. tim’s ammonium chloride to cycle my tank fully while doing the tub/daily 100% w/c with riz. i’m going to keep him in the tank and continue doing what i am doing until it arrives but i am interested to see if rizla’s behaviour changes at all once being reintroduced to a fully cycled tank. i am still curious as to whether i am the only one who has been recommended (by professional exotic petkeepers) to do an axolotl in cycling of their tank. i can’t imagine why several different employees would all tell me not to use a direct ammonia source, especially considering i purchased my tank and accessories two weeks before my axolotl was ready to come home with me. every employee that i had conversations with had several of their own axolotls so i am just stumped here. i do care about the health of my lil guy (who i am starting to suspect may actually be a girl) so i might as well do what i can to alleviate stress for the both of us.

 

[AMurry24537]

It's odd to me as well that they would say that, to be honest. I would expect that your ammonia AND nitrite levels should consistently remain at 0 in a fully cycled tank.

Regarding your question about exposure to low levels, I can't say for sure either way. I couldn't help but try to imagine a comparison with human health, which we know much more about and the best comparison I could think of was alcohol.

It comes in different forms, some of which are more harmful to us than others, and the harm varies greatly depending on concentration, but it is still technically poison.

Each individual person had their own alcohol tolerance depending on factors such as size, general health, and genetics. Someone who consumes alcohol regularly typically builds up at least some resistance, so in that way, the comparison supports your reasoning, but at the same time, the overall health of that person is also usually degraded as the alcohol affects their liver and other organs. I imagine it would be similar for axolotls.

Again, I don't know of this is a fair comparison, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt. As I mentioned before, the appearance/behavior of your axolotl is the best indication of whether or not what you're doing is working, and so far, it seems that you're doing all right, but I do still support your decision to cycle your tank without Riz in there

 

[catstralnaut]

It's odd to me as well that they would say that, to be honest. I would expect that your ammonia AND nitrite levels should consistently remain at 0 in a fully cycled tank.

Regarding your question about exposure to low levels, I can't say for sure either way. I couldn't help but try to imagine a comparison with human health, which we know much more about and the best comparison I could think of was alcohol.

It comes in different forms, some of which are more harmful to us than others, and the harm varies greatly depending on concentration, but it is still technically poison.

Each individual person had their own alcohol tolerance depending on factors such as size, general health, and genetics. Someone who consumes alcohol regularly typically builds up at least some resistance, so in that way, the comparison supports your reasoning, but at the same time, the overall health of that person is also usually degraded as the alcohol affects their liver and other organs. I imagine it would be similar for axolotls.

Again, I don't know of this is a fair comparison, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt. As I mentioned before, the appearance/behavior of your axolotl is the best indication of whether or not what you're doing is working, and so far, it seems that you're doing all right, but I do still support your decision to cycle your tank without Riz in there

i definitely am not trying to say that my tank is currently cycled, i just suspect it is very close. hopefully i am correct and this just means i will not need to keep rizla in the separate container for too long once i receive the dr. tim’s!

i also suspect that the fish folk at the exotic pet store preferred me to purchase their in-house products as that is the only place to purchase them in the city. i came in to replenish my dechlorinator and bacteria and discussed seachem prime with them and they said i would be “better off” with their products. in the end i think i have lost trust in them and am keen to see the result with the dosed cycle.

your comparison does make sense to me as i was holding a similar, albeit invalid (as i do not know if it is fair to compare humans to axolotls… like, when is the last time a human was able to regenerate a body part?!), comparison in my own head.

 

[Dmcx3xx]

thoughts on this?

i have been cycling with my guy in the tank for about two months now based on recommendations by my local exotic pet store. they feel, as do i, that adding an outside ammonia source (even WITHOUT the guy in the tank) isn’t advisable. i do daily water changes, depending on parameters, while adding beneficial bacteria as well as dechlorinator with every change. it has definitely been a very slow progression, but i am seeing it happen. there have been no visible signs of stress for my axie, aside from when there was a heat wave and it was more difficult to keep the temperature down without a chiller (ie. gill fungus). although even during this time the tank was never over 21C.

at one point i had added a very fine sand to the tank but i found it an incredible nuisance to maintain and i had an overbearing detritus population that was most likely from the java moss i had attached to a piece of driftwood in the tank. i had removed all live plants as well as the driftwood and sand to be able to monitor the parameters/worms without too many unanswered questions that i was having a hard time answering myself. it definitely knocked the cycle back a bit, but i am very diligent with twice daily testing and water changes as needed.

i recently made a post on a facebook group regarding my parameters for the last 4 days in hopes someone would confirm that i was either just about to complete my cycle or if more time was needed, and whether adding black sand (stoney river) was advisable or not. basically everyone on facebook believes the only safe amount of ammonia/nitrite is 0 and they all act as though i am putting my axie through harm or stress by cycling with him in the tank, but i’m stuck because i have read many things in the last two months regarding this and was under the impression that it is safe as long as i am doing what i am currently doing. ammonia/nitrites have never been over 0.5 for both compounds at any time, ever, and my nitrates are currently registering at a constant 5.0, probably never getting higher because of the water changes i am doing. ammonia currently at a constant 0, nitrites sometimes getting to 0.25 which cues my water change.

i guess what i am wondering is if anyone else has successfully cycled their tank with their axie in while maintaining their health/cycle in the end. if the tank is never converting high amounts of ammonia, like with the fish less cycling, is it still possible to successfully cycle and carry the appropriate bio load for one axie?

i realize i am doing it the hard way, but if there are to be toxic compounds in the water i would somehow prefer that they came about organically and not derived. am i crazy? there are a lot of “axie pros” out there on facebook, but i’m not sure if they are backed by science or by other facebook posts and i am currently questioning my own research and experience because of their comments.

my guy has very floofy gills, eats regularly, and is active at all the normal times (nighttime). the only time he got a bit lethargic is when i removed the sand (i think he was sad because he really liked cruising around in it).

i just need validation that i am not a bad owner. i give 90% of my limited spare time to dealing with this tank and it’s hitting me hard in the gut rn to think that these people are right. i am no doubt going about it in the longest format/most expensive way possible but at the end of the day it will be a naturally cycled tank and my dude should be able to handle minor spikes if they are ever to occur in the future.

posting a pic of him currently for reference (yes, i added the black sand), as well as a pic of water parameters from today after doing a 50% w/c yesterday when adding the sand. his name is rizla and he is in a 20g long tank with two 20g sponge filters powered by 10g pumps. for the first part of cycling i was using the exotic pet store brand aloe-free dechlorinator and bacteria (it’s called “peter’s”) but i could never find info online so recently switched to seachem prime and stability because i could at least find more info online about it.

i would also just like to say that if i ever witnessed any type of stress or issue i would immediately take him out and proceed as the groups had advised, but since i have not witnessed any of this, i feel somewhat confident that i am doing the right thing for us. riz actually freaks out the most if and when i ever move him to a smaller container, so i generally try to avoid this as much as possible. i have also since left those facebook groups as they seem to have only one answer to everything, which is to tub your axie and add more ammonia into the tank.

any info is appreciated and thank you for reading my novel!

Firstly I have just read half this post it's too much to go through.

Cycling a tank with any animal in is pretty cruel.

You will need to take you axolotl out and tub him with 100% daily water changes using seachem prime.

From what I read your doing water changes the water changes will actually remove the ammonia for it to cycle.

When you cycle a tank with Dr Tim's you top it to 4ppm your axolotl won't really have a bio load of 4ppm however better with that than too little.

Your tank doesn't look cycled your nitrates would be alot higher if it was.

You also say your nitrites also have been only to 0.5 when you cycle with Dr Tim's your nitrites would go to at least 3.0

My advice would be take your axolotl out and do a fishless cycle it's not fair on them