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Does anyone know of a study regarding...

S

sharon

Guest
.... the CB toxicity of Poison Dart Frogs?

I'm getting differing information (yep no kidding! ROTFL!). Its pretty much taken for granted that most CB PDFs lose some or all of their toxicity in captivity. HOWEVER, some sites are saying that some PDFs produce their own toxins internally rather from eating bugs that eat alkaloid plants or some such thing.

Most sites state its a theory. I'm curious. I've done a search but I'm not coming up with anything other than the common hobbyist sites with the same "theories."

I'm known to ramble anyway, but when I'm sick it really does get worse! And since I'm getting worse, not better... well, my posts go the same direction! My apologies....

Sharon
 
E

edward

Guest
Hi Sharon,
the genus Dendrobates, Phyllobates and Epipidobates lose the derived toxins in their skin which are the ones I would really worry about. As far as I know some of the Coleostethus (like the skunk frog) can still produce things like the smell which could be considered a toxin.
Some of the other poison frogs such as mantellas and Atelopus spp. do not appear to lose the ability to produce toxins.

Ed
 
J

jeff

Guest
Here's the best way of explaining things as far as I know. WC or FR poison dart frogs retain their normal level of toxicity and the first two generations of offspring also retain the toxins (F1 and F2). It is believed that the insects they would consume in the wild hold alkoloids that assist in the development of a cutaneous poison. Hence no insects, no poisons. The strongest evidence to support this theory that I know of would be the difference between wild populations of Dendrobates Azureus located in the Four Brothers Mountain Range of Sipaliwini (sp?) Savanna and the introduced population of Dendrobates Azureus of a few small islands in Hawaii to control mosquito populations. Evidently, the D. Azureus in Hawaii had a significantly less potent toxin in comparison to those in Sipaliwini. Some frogs you just need to be careful with irregardless (i.e. Phyllobates Terriblis). So long as you don't decide to kiss your frogs, you'll have no problems.
 

caleb

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Some of the confusion seems to stem from recent research which suggests that some dendrobatids actually convert chemicals from their prey into more toxic compounds. They certainly accumulate toxins from the insects they feed on.

So there are three main ways the frogs could become toxic:

1: By eating toxic prey, and accumulating their toxins.

2: By eating prey containing specific chemicals which are then modified to make them more toxic.

3: By generating their own toxins from the more general chemicals involved in normal metabolism.

Obviously the first and second methods mean that particular prey items are necessary to maintain the frog's toxicity.

Dendrobatids certainly use the first method and it seems likely that some may use the second.

I don't think they've been shown to use the third method- I believe this is how Bufo species (and Atelopus, as Ed mentioned) produce their toxins, though.
 

michael

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My take on it is they don't produce the poison but they possibly concentrate it or alter it. In general c.b. dart frogs have no toxins. Most wild caught dart frogs lose toxicity when kept in captivity. The same species of dart frogs have different toxin profiles depending on where and when they are collected. Wild caught P. terribilis and probably P. aurotaenia do not lose their poison very fast in captivity.
When were the D. azureus released in Hawaii. I thought I kept up on things but this is the first I have heard about this.
 
A

alan

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Michael,
Just to point out that it's not strictly accurate to say "c.b. dart frogs have no toxins", they do, as do most amphibians. However, the toxin profiles of cb animals are very different to those of wc (endogenous toxin production vs. endogenous + dietary/environmental/processed toxins).
 

michael

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Alan,
Of course you're correct. What I was meaning was deadly or strong toxins like the ones they are known for in the wild.
 
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    Because his soil is certainly not 80 degrees fahrenheit, and I dont want to freeze the poor bugger with ice packs if he really doesnt need them. Hes been doing fine, but Im just so stressed because I cant get ANy information on how to handle this little guy. Theyre illegal to keep without a permit, but this one would not have survived without my intervention. So I cant call and ask anyone for help. If theres a betetr site than this one, I sure havent found it. But I never get any replies here. We are all just asking questions and getting none answered basically. Its really frustrating as I just want to help this little dude be happy and healthy. All I can get him to eat is potato bugs as well. I cant find anything else that he will eat. Is that even okay? :/ hes been eating strictly those since may first.
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    Second of all, was you who said you wild caught your salamander? And had Authorities threaten to retrieve it from you?
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    he was dying outside. SO SORRY i was nice enough to save him. can i even release him in wetaher thats 40 degree celcius? will he not just die outside because he cant dig through the hard ground?
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    The ONLY reason I spent 500 dollars on this thing was to keep him alive. thats IT. He was completely dry with cracked skin and couldnt walk and I nursed him back to health. Now I should just throw him outside on the hard baked ground where I found him? in my driveway? Really dude?
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    I am losing patienc ebecause I care. Because I cant get any answers in any length of time that will actually benefit him. He'll only eat potato bugs, I just want him to have good rest of his life. Thats IT. So dont act like I went out an dillegally trapped some poor salamander out of the wild for fun cuz I wanted one.
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    I am very sure he was just trying to pass by, because he certainly cant dig ANYWHERE in the soil ANYWHERE near where I live. So I cannot just release him in 40 degree celcius on the super hard baked ground where theres no shelter and no food and now ater to be seen for miles. I dont see how that wioll help him at all.
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    What did I say sorry? What word?
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