Dorsol-lateral zone in Lissotriton Vulgaris vulgaris

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Hi everyone

I have some cb 2010 lissotriton vulgaris vulgaris , they are all around 2,5 to 4cm , kept in a terrestrial vivarium, and 3 young-adult animals , two are acquatic now , they measure 6 cm the male and 8 cm the female.
My male is courting non-stop and he started to develop a little tiny crest , wich is perfectly normal
his body was almost completely rounded on land , but now he have a well defined dorso lateral ridge , from what i know L.v.v should be rounded , if i compare mine with pictures around the net he looks more like L.v.graecus except for the almost completely absent tail filament and the hind feet .
So basicly i have some doubt
I completely trust of who sold me those animals , so no really a problem if they are some different sub species , i'm in love with all lissotriton so im more than happy aniway

now some pics , hope somebody can clarify my doubt

thanks for looking

 

[caleb]

I've never seen dorso-lateral ridges like that in northern European vulgaris vulgaris, it does look more like one of the southern subspecies.

I don't think you'll be able to get a better guess until his crest is fully developed, but as you're in Italy, is meridionalis not more likely?

Chris Raxworthy wrote a key to the vulgaris subspecies, I'll post it when I get some time.

 

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they come from Austria ( Salamanderland )
thanks for the reply

 

[Azhael]

Coming from there i´d say they could be their L.v.cf. graecus. As Caleb said wait until the animals are a bit more mature and all the secondary sexual characteristics are expressed and developed. Using a key should then be relatively easy.

 

[caleb]

OK, I've reproduced the key below. Incidentally, does anyone know of any other breeders who offer non-nominate vulgaris subspecies? I've only ever kept v. vulgaris, but would be interested to try some of the others.

From Raxworthy, C. J., 1990. A review of the smooth newt (Triturus vulgaris) subspecies, including an identification key. Herpetological Journal 1: 481-492.

1. The crest is obviously denticulated along the body: 2
The crest is approximately smooth edged along its entire length: 4

2. The tail tip gradually tapers to a fine point, frequently with a very fine thread-like end. The body cross section is slightly square-shaped dorsally. The crest denticulations may be pointed or rounded: 3

The tail tip usually tapers gradually to a blunt point. The body cross section is rounded in the dorso-lateral region. The crest denticulations are rounded: T. v. vulgaris

3. The toe flaps are not obvious. The crest denticulations are almost pointed and extend onto the tail past the cloaca: T. v. schmidtlerorum

The toe flaps can be seen easily. The denticulations may be rounded or pointed and extend onto the tail past the cloaca: T. v. ampelensis

4. The tail tip ends in a long tail filament which is devoid of tail fin and shows a distinct transition from the rest of the tail. There are obvious well developed dorso-lateral folds on the body: 5

The tail tip tapers gradually to a fine point, showing no distinct transition from the rest of the tail. Dorso-lateral folds may be present or absent: 6

5. No large dark spots typically touch the lower tail fin margin and the pale pelvic line is usually very obvious. Only small spots on the belly (<1.5mm dia): T. v. graecus

Large dark spots typically touch the lower tail fin margin and the pale pelvic line is absent or very poorly developed. Usually a few large spots on the belly (>1.5mm dia): T. v. kosswigi

6. The crest is always smooth edged. There are weak dorso-lateral folds on the body: T. v. meridionalis

The crest may be weakly denticulated. There are no dorso-lateral folds on the body though this is slightly square shaped dorsally: T. v. ampelensis

 

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thank you for posting this
anyway his crest is slowly getting bigger and the dorso lateral ridge prominent...
i really hope all the groups are from the same sub-species , honestly i dont like too much the idea to create hybrid.

Maybe the better things to do is to send an e-mail to Gunter with pics.