Question: Feeding slugs and snails

[Strogg999]

Hi,

I've noticed that several posts recommend feeding slugs/snails to axolotls. However when formulating diets for other species (mammals) I've always tried to steer clear of these because they take in environmental toxins from their surroundings, which has implications for both wildlife, and people. Zinc, cadmium, lead, and copper can all be taken up by land snails and slugs, and this is how certain toxins bio-magnify, and move up the food chain. I know they are often used as a useful biological tool by researchers to assess soil pollution. Is this something taken into account when using them as a food source, i.e. are they best used only if they are well away from industrialised areas, or better and safer if they are avoided completely ?

Ed

 

[Darkmaverick]

Hi Ed,

Actually this is the reason why i do not feed my axies slugs or snails although many members have fed snails and slugs to axies without any problems for years. I think the majority of them are caught from their own gardens and i highly doubt people will snail harvest from industrial zones. You highlighted a very good point that i think is worth expanding further with discussions.

Cheers.

 

[Strogg999]

Hi,

Sorry I should of been a little more specific :happy: Although I live on farmland we're not that far away from a heavy traffic motorway plus theres a brook that passes the lower part of the farm that occasionally get some chemical overspill from a few industrial units nearby. I'm a keen gardener too, and everything is done organically, but even so I've avoided them for the reasons I've just mentioned. I've known for years that these gastropods have this ability to concentrate pollutant substances such as the metallic trace elements in all of its tissues, so like you, I've never thought it worth any possible long term risk. It seems ironic that we spend our money on tap water conditioners that break up heavy metals, only to invite them in through another potential source.

Ed

 

[Tanzaniterose]

I have to say. I think you're on the right wavelength there Strogg; even if the slugs in your garden are from an organic garden, the garden next door, or the door after that, may not be organic and is coated in pesticides and fertilisers.

I'm sure that I read somewhere about the external and internal parasite load in slugs being usually sky high. I would presume this would apply to wild-caught snails also.

I think if one was inclined to feed slugs or snails to their axie (or any other caudate), you would be safer doing what Callina says here .. http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=62382

If the slugs are from nature, I wouldn´t feed them to the axies, because they are full of bacteria (they eat dead "animals, f.e. slugs") and that could harm the axies. It´s better to breed them in a box and feed the offspring (fed with plants and vegetables) to your axies.

 

[Darkmaverick]

Hi all,

There is always a potential threat in feeding any live food to axies. This is actually applicable to every type of live food - feeder fish, shrimps, worms, insects etc.

In snails and slugs, the three main concerns are 1) Fertilisers and pesticides, 2) Accumulation of heavy metals and 3) Introduction of parasites and diseases. In addition, unlike feeder fish/shrimps, most slugs or snails are seldomly subjected to the minimum 30 day quarantine safeguard. Snails and slugs do however make a nutritious snack for axies in terms of nutritional composition.

The safest way is obviously to avoid feeding snails or slugs if you worry about any of the potential problems. Otherwise, careful harvesting from known safe areas shouldn't pose too much of a problem. Bottom line is, i don't think here is a absolute right or wrong when it comes to this matter. It is just like feeding any other live food where the best precautions are taken.

I personally don't think it is easy to 'breed' slugs so the practicality aspect of Callina's suggestion is questionable. Slugs do harbour parasites and even toxins/contaminants from the environment and can introduce diseases just like any other live food.

Cheers

 

[ianclick]

Hi,

I have fed or more to the point tried to feed slugs to my axolotls. I rinsed it and flushed it overnight and they were not that interested one took a bite and quickly spat it out so I have never tried again. they also left alot of gooey slime in the tank in the few minutes they were in there for. But I have to say based on the reation my axolotls just didn't seem to like them. They were NZ Tiger Slugs.

 

[Strogg999]

Thanks for the input guys.

Rayson,

You are spot on saying that there's a potential threat with any live food source.
I would also be tempted to place an addendum to point 3 that you made, which is that some of these parasites found in slugs can prove fatal to humans. Two notables to mention are Angiostrongylus cantonensis, a lung worm of rats, and Angiostrongylus vasorum - French Heartworm. The first is a small nematode that is found in rat droppings. Slugs and snails then feed on the droppings becoming infected themselves. The end result if humans accidentally ingest any mucous is Eosinophilic meningitis, which is extremely unpleasant and sometimes fatal. There have been numerous reports of this where salad greens have been infected with snail mucous. The second, the French heartworm has a very similar life cycle to A. Cantonensis . Often it has no symptoms, but can still end in death. So I would always stress the use of gloves if you are collecting wild slugs, and forceps to feed with. If any slug slime does get on your hands, wash immediately.
As for nutrition, from what I can glean it is similar in composition to land snails. The drawback though is that they are around 80% water. The remainder is estimated to be 15% protein, around 2.4% fats, the other values being carbohydrates and ash content.

Ed

 

[Darkmaverick]

Hi Ed,

Most parasites have host specifity and tissue tropism in their life cycle so i am not sure if they can establish themselves in axolotls. I speculate that they may only be a transient infection or even subclinical/asymptomatic infection in axies. Furthermore, axies being fully aquatic, would affect the lifecycle of these parasites.

Angiostrongylus, Dirofilaria can affect dogs (heartworm) as a chronic infection however cats are much more resistant for example. Most lungworm infections (ie Dictyocaulus) again are quite host specific and cannot really establish itself in other species. The clinical picture also varies greatly between different animal species. An infection can be completely asymptomatic and then clear up spontaneously in a non-specific host.

For some species evolved to feed on certain insects and molluscs, they actually develop special compensatory physiological or immunological mechanisms that actually prevent infection. They might for example secrete specific secretory IgA antibodies in mucosal membranes, heightened chemotaxis or diapesis that gather immune cells around the alimentary tract and even produce countering antivenom or antioxidant. However, again as with any live food, snails and slugs will still always present with some risk of introducing diseases.

As for nutrition, actually to delve into it further, it goes beyond just nutritional composition. The types of proteins and carbohydrates etc. present in different food types are actually assimilated differently by different species. For eg. a cat versus a dog versus and axolotl. A cat being obligate carnivore, utilise mammalian protein sources very efficiently whereas dogs can actually derive some protein sources from plant material (omnivore). An axie i would suspect can effectively utlilise and convert their nutrition from worms, insects and molluscs very efficiently and assimilate the nutrition well.

Zoonotic infections are always to be cautious of. I agree with safeguards such as the use of gloves when harvesting.

Cheers.

 

[Strogg999]

Hi,

Yes I agree on both points with host specificity and nutrition. I would imagine though that water based live foods posed a greater risk to axolotls than land based live foods. I discovered the health section on John's website and it goes into some detail about various parasites and their transmission to axolotls, http://www.axolotl.org/health.htm. He does mention parasitic roundworms (nematodes) though and refers to Peter W Scott's book which highlights methods of treatment with axolotls, so presumably some species of these roundworms must be parasitic to axolotls ?

The reason I brought up the zoonotic infections is because it's nearly always overlooked, but is quite relevant to the discussion. Things like mealworms and maggots etc, are notorious carriers of E.coli and Salmonella simply because of they way they are produced commercially.

The nutritional aspect is a good point to bring up, and like you say, protein, carbs and fats are all assimilated differently in different species. This is the reason why animal nutritionists formulate different diets for the various species that we keep in captivity. At around 15% protein, with low fats too it seems rather a good ratio for axolotls. However the water content is quite high, so I'm wondering how many would be adequate in the staple diet or even for a treat?

Ed

 

[Darkmaverick]

Hi Ed,

Yes one group of nasty parasite that can cross infect every species are nematodes. They are essentially helminthic worms in the gastrointestinal tract. There are many types - roundworms, hookworms, tapeworms, pinworms but nontheless they all live in the alimentary tract and often cause ill thrift, inappetance, anemia, weight loss, unusual stools and even impaction. There are still some host specificity within each genus but less apparent. Gastrointestinal protozoa and algae such as giardia, coccidia and prototheca are also notorious for cross species infections. Fortunately, faecal analysis (faecal float and chamber counting) can often detect these rather easily. Fenbendazole and metronidazole etc. can also be given orally to treat these.

Yes i completely agree with zoonosis potential with a lot of livefood and handling of pets. I tend to advise a lot on taking precautionary measures - washing hands with soap, avoid touching with bare hands etc. in this forum. It really is one of those things that its better safe than sorry and prevention is better than cure situation.

Hmm i would not recommend snails and slugs as a staple diet for axies. An occasional snack is fine. Since its a 'somtimes' food, i would say perhaps just a single one will suffice at each session.

Cheers.

 

[Strogg999]

Hmm i would not recommend snails and slugs as a staple diet for axies. An occasional snack is fine. Since its a 'somtimes' food, i would say perhaps just a single one will suffice at each session.

I thought similar, but as a beginning keeper myself I'm often confused after reading some posts because I also read that others often feed live food almost exclusively to their Ambystomids. There's a recent example in this thread, http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=62382

So presumably it is possible to use a variety of live foods as the main staple, maybe with a few pellets thrown in? and it seems if done right they seem to do well on it. However with my lot I've tried to convert them to pellets as soon as possible, and just use earthworms as a treat. This has worked great with virtually all of them except for two that simply refuse them, in which case I'm left no alternative but to give them earthworms and keep trying to entice them with the pellets :happy:

What I'm trying to find out is if there's other live foods out there that would be an ok alternative to the earthworms, if just to give the awkward twosome a little variety. I read that slugs were often used but so far I think the cons outweigh any pros.

Ed

 

[Darkmaverick]

Hi Ed,

As an alternative to pellets, earthworms, blackworms and bloodworms when harvested properly and safely are fine even as an exclusive staple food type. Other live food such as feeder fish, shrimp, molluscs and insects are only appropriate as an occasional snack. Non live food such as slivers of beef, prawn or fish fillet are fine as snacks as well.

The only three main precautions (limited or avoid feeding) are 1) avoid raw liver (and offal) which contains high concentration of vitamin A and enzymes which can cause vitamin A toxicity, malnutrition and liver problems among others. 2) Live fish which contains thiaminase which would break down thiamine and lead to defiency - neurological signs. 3) Mealworms or any insect with chitinous shell - chitinous material are not digested by the axie and can lead to constipation and impaction. Live mealworms also bite.

Have a look through Jen's articles. They are rather informative.

http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/foods.shtml

http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/foods2.shtml

http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/worms.shtml

http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/worms2.shtml

Cheers.