Gak. Did you know people inject dye into fish!

[doktordoris]

As I posted earlier I'd love a glofish, and I am generally fairly anti-GM.

I just cannot see a problem with glowing zebra fish.

People are not going to eat them, so there is no problem there.
Zebra fish don't live in the wild, so a released glofish cannot upset a natural population.
Even IF someone released a skip-load of GMed zebras, they'd freeze to death right away.

So what is the problem?
I really can't see why the EU and California should be denied ownership of such interesting little beasties.

Or am I missing the point?

 

[John]

I'm far from an expert on GMOs, but do you have a citation for this? It doesn't make sense to me to modify crops to be resistant to pesticides because, as far as I know, the pesticides don't affect the crops themselves. I guess you could be referring to herbicide resistance...

Yes I meant herbicides. I think of pesticide as an umbrella term. You should know though that insecticides generally have some effects on the plants they are used on, even if that's only in so far as some is absorbed into the plant which is subsequently eaten by you (and those insecticides have an effect on you - most modes of action on insects are also available in humans, just to a lesser or slower paced extent).

If you want info on GM foods and the motivations of the people behind them, read about Monsanto on Wikipedia. That company dwarfs all other genetically modified organism companies and reading the wikipedia page you can see they have a questionable record regarding human/nature safety and welfare. There is an excellent quote on that page (it has a reference):

Phil Angell, Monsanto's director of corporate communications (referring to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration) explained the company's regulatory philosophy to Michael Pollan in 1998:
"Monsanto should not have to vouchsafe the safety of biotech food. Our interest is in selling as much of it as possible. Assuring its safety is FDA's job."

GM crops, in theory, are a wonderful idea. However it gives pause for thought, I believe, if the motivations of the people making these patented genetically modified organisms are based solely on profit.

 

[ianclick]

Herbicide tolerance is one facet of G.M. but I feel it is a far too broad generalisation. Especially in terms of over simplifying things.

In saying this you have over looked Pest resistance, Disease resistance, Temperature tolerance, Drought tolerance, Salinity tolerance, Nutrition, Pharmaceuticals and Phytoremediation. Which are equally as valid.

In point of fact Most Genetically modified crops that are modified for herbicide tolerance are done so Farmers can ultimately use less herbicide.

"Farmers will often spray large quantities of different herbicides (weed-killer) to destroy weeds, a time-consuming and expensive process, that requires care so that the herbicide doesn't harm the crop plant or the environment. Crop plants genetically-engineered to be resistant to one very powerful herbicide could help prevent environmental damage by reducing the amount of herbicides needed." Dr Johnathon Jones Royal Society

 

[John]

Regarding the Irish famine, the reason I say simplistic is that the potato crop failure is not what killed those people. The nearest analogy I can come up with is that it is like you are trying to lecture a Jewish person on the Holocaust. Please leave this one alone.

Regarding GM crops, I'm not sure what your qualifications are and I don't mean to be dismissive, but I've read and understood a lot of research on these issues, as well as being familiar with the economic realities of farming. I can also speak as an expert on chemistry and its effects on organisms, as well as someone with a multidisciplinary Bachelor's degree in Biology and Chemistry. The quote of our Royal Society friend that you have trotted out there saddens me greatly, as does the fact that such slight of hand disinformation is readily swallowed by the lay public.

 

[John]

You know, I am going to leave my posting on this topic with this post here. My main thrust regarding the GM companies is that it's easy to blindly believe the PR and to think the best of their motivations. Unfortunately their actions are ruled by their profit margins and not their hearts. That is the way of things for most companies and, I suppose, understandable. However when it is something that can impact the organisms of the world, or something that you put in your mouth and the mouths of your children, don't you think we have to hold such companies to higher standards of ethics than a multinational that makes computer chips, for example?

Sorry for helping to side track the original point of this thread.

 

[ianclick]

My apologies John,

I was not aware that a having a Doctorate was a prerequisite for having an opinion or the right to express it.

If I offended you with my simplistic view point then that is to my regret. I was not questioning your expertise or qualifications. I was just expressing my opinion which I will continue to do.

 

[doktordoris]

I like glofish, as I said, but Iam NOT keen on GM crops.

F'rinstance did you see those poor sods in India who invested in GM pest resistant, bells and whistles crops. All went well until they started planning next years harvest, using the seeds from this years. Uh-oh, Imagine their shock when informed that they had blown all their cash on F1 hybrids and they would have to buy again, every year.
And, despite quite 'science-ey', I don't like the way that GM crops are being tested in England; I think too many risks are being taken with regards to accidental fertilisation of neighbouring crops.

But, perhaps Iam just an old hippie who doesn't know better. I certainly hope so and the world is fine!

 

[doktordoris]

whooah!

whilst writing my reply people got even more pissed off.

sorry I started this thread lads!

 

[pete]

whooah!

whilst writing my reply people got even more pissed off.

sorry I started this thread lads!

No worries. To give a little humor, this topic reminds me of what I find most annoying about painted fish. A post doc once had a calendar of brightly colored goldfish with interesting patterns on their scales next to her desk. As I flipped through the months, I spent a good 5 minutes pondering/discussing the genetic expression profiles that must underly such intricate patternings, only to be interrupted by a former fish enthusiast/fellow grad student who stated, "You dip@#$! they're painted on."

 

[SludgeMunkey]

And for real humor, most of the food we all eat are or contain "GM crops"... (Corn, Wheat, Tomatoes, tobacco, cattle, hogs, and even poultry all have been genetically modified numerous times for mass consumption...)

Oh, and 95% of your municipal and bottled water is irradiated too! (that's the media's way of saying its been UV-C Sterilized)


As stated in another thread folks, don't let catchphrases and buzzwords suck you in. It is better to research facts to form opinions, rather than what the mass media tells you to think. When I say research, I mean valid sources from all points of view that present verifiable evidence.

In a nut shell, if Dyed fish and GM pets bother you, do not buy them. Let your pet shop know how you feel about it also. Keep in mind however, if there was no demand for them, there would be no market for them...

 

[doktordoris]

In a nut shell, if Dyed fish and GM pets bother you, do not buy them. Let your pet shop know how you feel about it also. Keep in mind however, if there was no demand for them, there would be no market for them...

I don't and I certainly won't buy colour injected fish(I feel calling them 'painted' obscures the horror of it all), but Iam so incensed by their existance that just not buying them somehow doesn't seem action enough.

I have written to my MP suggesting that he gets them outlawed, but what else can one do? I feel that horrified by it all.

 

[kenya]

The Glofish don't bother me too much. It started in labs, for a specific purpose, and then was released into the pet industry. And though we can't know how genetically altering plants and animals truly affects them, what's done is done. The Glofish seem perfectly healthy. I had a pair and they tortured each other. I later learned that this is normal of zebra danios kept in very small groups. My grandfather worked for the government and was stationed all around the world to genetically alter crops to help them thrive in not great climates with limited resources. Africa, South America, Europe, etc. Individually injected fish is sad. A couple embryo injected is still sad, but now they breed that way, which is a lot less damaging than dipping a thousand fish into dyes and killing off most of them and permantly damaging the rest. This is one of those things that is not really black or white.

And aren't pesticides and insecticides the driving force behind so many people eating organic foods? Sometimes they mess up, and it can be really bad. I am going to grow my own grasses and such for my rats to play in and eat, so I can know for sure they won't ingest any poisons.

Though I don't have any real desire to own glowing axolotls, I'm not completely against them. I just don't care for individually injected anything.